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Author Topic:   who was this 70s researcher who questioned evolution?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 30 (640957)
11-14-2011 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jimiwa
11-13-2011 9:53 AM


So what if some guy did doubt??
Let's take your post at face value
jimiwa writes:
He came to the conclusion through his research ... that it is possible that Darwin's theory of evolution is false.
....[H]e came to this belief solely by his research, which to an agnostic/atheistic scientist would be a more effective way at convincing them.
Let's assume that this unknown person won a noble prize for his work in genetics. Do you think that this scientist's work 30-40 years ago, where such work merely opened a possibility that Darwin's theory was wrong would be effective and convincing? What's this unknown buffoon we're trying to convince supposed to make of all of the evidence to the contrary?
In fact, I would expect a rationale person would ask you for your next argument. I don't think you could even convince many Christians who had doubts about evolution with this line of reasoning.
Anyway, assuming that the story is even true, I'd expect the answer to be available on any number of apologetics web pages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jimiwa, posted 11-13-2011 9:53 AM jimiwa has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 30 (640964)
11-14-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by sfs
11-14-2011 7:30 PM


Re: " . . . I think it had to do with genetics and evolution . . . "
All other things being equal, proving X false does mean that Y is more likely, assuming X and Y are alternative possibilities.
Really? So proving that earth is not a flat disk mounted on the backs of turtles makes it more likely that the earth is actually being pushed around its orbit by butterflies?
I don't believe you've thought this principle through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by sfs, posted 11-14-2011 7:30 PM sfs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by sfs, posted 11-14-2011 9:28 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 30 (640972)
11-14-2011 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by sfs
11-14-2011 9:28 PM


Re: " . . . I think it had to do with genetics and evolution . . . "
n the original formulation, let the prior probabilities of X and Y be p(X) and p(Y), and the probability of all other possibilities be p(Z).
Nonsense.
I understand how probability works, but your calculations are not applicable. How does disproving something that has a zero probability of being correct improve the odds that something else is true.
There was never any probability or any evidence for the earth being mounted to the backs of turtles. The fact that people might nonetheless have believed the proposition means absolutely nothing.
The probability that butterflies are pushing the earth around in its orbit is exactly zero. Disproving some unrelated proposition is never going to improve those odds.
ABE:
Here's an alternative way of looking at things. The number of made up nonsense possible explanations for how the earth moves is infinite. Removing p(x) doesn't increase the probability that any unrelated explanation is correct.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by sfs, posted 11-14-2011 9:28 PM sfs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by sfs, posted 11-14-2011 9:59 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 30 (640976)
11-14-2011 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by sfs
11-14-2011 9:59 PM


Re: " . . . I think it had to do with genetics and evolution . . . "
As far as I know, you can only prove something false if its probability isn't already zero.
I'm sure you know better than that. Something with zero probability of being true must be false, and can often (but not always) be proven to be false. People often need to be persuaded to drop erroneous beliefs, and one avenue for doing so is providing proof that their beliefs are contrary to the evidence.
Can I prove that the number of degrees in a triangle in planar geometry is never greater than 2 right angles? Yes I can. Euclid in fact showed that the number of degrees in a triangle is always exactly equal to two right angles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by sfs, posted 11-14-2011 9:59 PM sfs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by sfs, posted 11-14-2011 10:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 30 (640987)
11-15-2011 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by sfs
11-14-2011 10:39 PM


Re: " . . . I think it had to do with genetics and evolution . . . "
I don't see your point here. What was the probability that the theorem was correct before Euclid proved it? Seriously, I don't know whether you think it was always equal to one or not. And what does this have to do with proving something false that's already known to be false?
Already known by whom to be false? In this discussion between you and me, you believe that I am wrong. But the matter of which one of us is wro
I don't see your point here. What was the probability that the theorem was correct before Euclid proved it? Seriously, I don't know whether you think it was always equal to one or not. And what does this have to do with proving something false that's already known to be false?
Already known by whom to be false? In this discussion between you and me, you believe that I am wrong. But the matter of which one of us is wrong is not a matter of probability. One of us has already made a crucial reasoning error. The person whose arguments and premises are correct is right despite the other person's belief to the contrary.
One of use is trying to convince other person that his belief is false. This discussion is an example of one of us trying to prove to the other that a proposition with zero likelihood of being correct is actually false.
Of course my position is that I am the person trying to accomplish the task that you claim cannot be done. Namely proving false a proposition that has zero chance of being correct.
Your proposition that there are probabilities that can be assigned to competing theories is in error. Propositions for truth do not work like selecting colored marbles in a bag, where taking out one colored marble changes the distribution of colors remaining. There are an infinite amount of propositions for which there is no evidence at all. Proving that Zeus did not exist does not add to any probability that Odin actually does.
For example. Let's say that there are two people holding beliefs about the earth.
One person believes that the earth is a flat disk riding on the backs of turtles and the other believing that the earth is flat and rides on the backs of elephants.
A scientist tells the two people that he has evidence regarding the true nature of the earth. He calls the first person into a sound proof room and shows him convincing proof that the earth is not a disk riding on the back of turtles.
Has the probability increased that the other proposition is true? Well the second person believes so when he sees the sad look on his colleague's face. But when he is called into the sound proof room the scientist shows the second person the same thing that he showed the first person. Absolute proof that the earth is spherical rather than disk shaped.
So did disproving the first silly theory increase the probability that the second theory was true? No. Despite the hope that the second person felt when he saw the crestfallen face of the first person, both theories were completely discredited by the same evidence.
Suppose instead the scientist had shown the first person proof that every turtle ever born or created was accounted for, and no turtles were available for the earth to ride on. That proof eliminates one theory, but does it increase some probability that the other theory is true? My guess is that you think so.
What if instead the scientist provided convincing evidence that there is no air in space and that all reptiles and mammals required air to breathe, wouldn't you suggest that that knowledge decrease the odds that either man's proposition was correct?
In fact, generally speaking we cannot assign probability that theories of reality are correct, and we cannot enumerate them. We can eliminate theories or classes of theories with evidence against a theory, but only evidence supporting a theory directly can give us increased confidence that any theory is correct.
Getting back to the original point, do you agree that disproving X does make Y more likely, assuming Y is not already known to be false (and making the other assumptions I've already described)?
Of course not!! Not in the general case anyway. Without some info regarding the relationship between X and Y and the evidence for both, it's impossible to say how new facts will affect one proposition even if the facts absolutely rule out another proposition.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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