Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,927 Year: 4,184/9,624 Month: 1,055/974 Week: 14/368 Day: 14/11 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Supreme Court Obamacare Case -- Pros and Cons
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 3 of 39 (657193)
03-26-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
03-26-2012 4:16 PM


I'm for the bill, though as you say, it's not strong enough.
The major complaints, as I've heard them, deal with the mandate. People feel it is unconstitutional for the government to force you to buy something. I can sort of see the argument, but if that's the case, there are a lot of things that I'm forced to buy that I wouldn't necessarily want to. The ones I can think of off the top of my head, though, are all state laws, not federal ones.
Edited by Perdition, : Replaced Giantish "fo" with English "of"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 4:16 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 5 of 39 (657198)
03-26-2012 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
03-26-2012 4:29 PM


Re: ARGUMENT AGAINST
If we had universal healthcare then everyone would de facto have an individual mandate to be covered.
What's the beef?
People feel they don't need to buy insurance because they "never go to the doctor." This, of course, is untrue. Everyone, at some point, has to visit some sort of doctor.
The common response is, "Well, if I do go, I'll pay for it myself."
The cost of surgery or even setting a broken bone, however, is far above what a common individual could just pay for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 4:29 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 5:22 PM Perdition has replied
 Message 18 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 7 of 39 (657209)
03-26-2012 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
03-26-2012 5:22 PM


Re: ARGUMENT AGAINST
And when people don't have insurance they get aid from the hospital and the state to cover some of the costs if they can't pay it.
Exactly. People tend to see only the impact on themselves and their loved ones. They assume they're taking the risk of a major injury or illness upon themselves, but in reality, they're putting it on everyone else.
This is what needs to be voiced far and wide. Health insurance isn't there to protect you (though it does that, too) it's there to protect everyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 5:22 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 5:45 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 10 of 39 (657217)
03-26-2012 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
03-26-2012 5:45 PM


Re: ARGUMENT FOR
We should also have a single payer system.
I completely agree. With one pool of people, the costs would be significantly lower, both for medical procedures and for medicine.
Without the profit motive, there would be a lot more morality to the coverage, as well. No more would there be much incentive to gouge people who are already going through a tough time.
As you say, this law isn't perfect, it's only a first step on the long road to rational healthcare, but I bet, assuming it stands up in the court case, that in a decade or so, people will feel this can't be gotten rid of, much like Medicare and Social Security.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2012 5:45 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 12 of 39 (657222)
03-26-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taq
03-26-2012 6:13 PM


Re: ARGUMENT FOR
Specific, no. Product, yes. If I understand the law correctly, you are required to buy private health insurance or pay a tax. If I am wrong, someone please correct me on this one.
This issue was the very one argued today. The government was very vocal in saying that nothing in this bill was a tax. There was a penalty, a fee, for not buying health insurance, much like there is a penalty or fee for breaking traffic laws.
In court, it was argued that this was, in fact, a tax, and therefore could not be challenged until it was actually collected, in 2015, meaning this court case couldn't proceed until then.
The Supreme Court saw through this argument, and agreed that it wasn't a tax. Now, the interesting thing is, the government will still argue that they can levy this fee under their taxation powers, because the SC has allowed the government the right to levy fees under their taxation powers that are not labelled or described as taxes.
Confused yet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 03-26-2012 6:13 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Jon, posted 03-26-2012 6:39 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 20 of 39 (657348)
03-27-2012 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Artemis Entreri
03-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: ARGUMENT AGAINST
yes, but why is healthcare so expensive?
Part of it is the cost of the doctor. They spend a lot of money, time and effort to become doctors, and presumably, you don't even want the ones that put all that effort in and came out last in their class, you want the best of the best. That's going to cost you.
But there is also the cost of the procedures: the machinery being used (CAT scans, PET scans, X-Rays), the labs being run (techs, equipment, materials), any time spent in the hospital (food, heat, electricity, construction, expansion, etc).
But the proftability of the insurance companies is also a large part of the cost. That's why I favor a public option, the profit motive is removed, and the risk of anyone being uninsured goes away almost completely. Any remaining risk is spread across the entire population, diluting it quite a bit.
I think forcing you to buy something from a private company borders on supporting a monopoly, something that will be based on profits, instead of patient care, driving up the cost, and driving down the quality.
Since there are competing insurance companies, there is no monopoly, and under conventional economic wisdom, the competition should keep costs down (it doesn't but oh well). But yeah, I support a public option, which removes much of the concerns of the second half of your quote above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-27-2012 4:13 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 24 of 39 (657359)
03-27-2012 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Artemis Entreri
03-27-2012 4:48 PM


Re: ARGUMENT AGAINST
is it really that expensive to write scripts all day long?
If that was all doctors did, we could get rid of them right now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Artemis Entreri, posted 03-27-2012 4:48 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:31 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 33 of 39 (657443)
03-28-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Taq
03-28-2012 2:54 PM


Re: DAY TWO, and the beat goes on ...
Exactly. Democrats have really missed a chance to use this law as a cudgel. They could claim, and rightly so, that Republicans are in favor of overturning a law that prevents insurance companies from dumping kids that have cancer. They could easily paint Republicans as being in the pockets of greedy insurers who see sick children as a threat to profits.
If the law passes the Supreme Court's muster, I'd be very surprised if they didn't use it this way. However, this case has been on the way since almost the very moment the law was signed, so while the Republicans have been using it as a rallying cry (to some effect), if it is ruled unconstitutional, the Democrats who were using it as a cudgel could seem to have quite a bit of egg on their faces.
I think it was more of a wait and see how things pan out before we really tie ourselves to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Taq, posted 03-28-2012 2:54 PM Taq has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 36 of 39 (658232)
04-03-2012 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Artemis Entreri
04-03-2012 12:31 PM


Re: ARGUMENT AGAINST
all the general practitioner does is write scripts or send you to a specialist.
Wow, your doctor sucks. Mine does exams, orders tests him/herself, councils on health style, and yes, writes prescriptions and refers me to a specialist if needed.
But even if all they did was write scripts and send you to specialists, do you not find that a useful occupation? Would you know what medications to take? Would you know who to go see for an ailment? If so, why are you going to the doctor at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:31 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:41 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 38 of 39 (658244)
04-03-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Artemis Entreri
04-03-2012 12:41 PM


Re: ARGUMENT AGAINST
just for the scripts.
Then it seems your doctor is doing everything you want him to. What's your complaint again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-03-2012 12:41 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Artemis Entreri, posted 04-04-2012 3:11 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024