Author
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Topic: How long would it take for a novel alelle to be fixated in a population?
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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So are those 1667 base pair mutatons enough? or he is wrong about the limit. The 1,667 substitutions are typically single nucleotides, not 1,667 whole genes. Edited by CoolBeans, : No reason given.
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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Why is it worthless?
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 48 of 64 (692963)
03-08-2013 7:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 46 by CoolBeans 03-08-2013 6:30 PM
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So are those 1667 base pair mutatons enough? No-one knows.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 46 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 6:30 PM | | CoolBeans has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 49 of 64 (692964)
03-08-2013 7:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by CoolBeans 03-08-2013 6:39 PM
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Why is it worthless? I thought I'd explained that. Do you have any specific questions?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 47 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 6:39 PM | | CoolBeans has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 50 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 7:38 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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So there would be 1667 beneficial base pair mutations and neutral mutations to account for our species. Other than that I cant think of anything other than gene expression. Is there anything wrong with ReMine's calculation's or results?
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 51 of 64 (692971)
03-08-2013 8:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by CoolBeans 03-08-2013 7:38 PM
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So there would be 1667 beneficial base pair mutations and neutral mutations to account for our species. No. Read it through again until you understand it. Haldane's math relates to the fixation of beneficial variations by natural selection. It does not relate to the fixation of neutral mutations by genetic drift, where you get a completely different answer.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 50 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 7:38 PM | | CoolBeans has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 52 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 8:24 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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I meant that it would be the 1667 mutations plus the neutral mutations. I should have been more clear. My fault
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 53 of 64 (692973)
03-08-2013 8:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 52 by CoolBeans 03-08-2013 8:24 PM
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I meant that it would be the 1667 mutations plus the neutral mutations. I should have been more clear. My fault OK. If Haldane's assumptions were right (and some have suggested that they are not) then a ball-park figure of about 2000 beneficial mutations, give or take an order of magnitude, might be about right. I wouldn't be surprised if it was rather fewer.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 52 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 8:24 PM | | CoolBeans has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 54 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 8:38 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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please explain how 1667 mutations would be sufficient and more importantly how are his assumption wrong. Also note that it was about 10 million years. Now we know that it was about 6 million years, so thoes mutations are reduced. Edited by CoolBeans, : No reason given.
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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Message 55 of 64 (692977)
03-08-2013 9:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by PaulK 03-08-2013 3:34 PM
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I dont think so. I personally think it could be problematic.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 37 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2013 3:34 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 56 of 64 (692984)
03-09-2013 12:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 54 by CoolBeans 03-08-2013 8:38 PM
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please explain how 1667 mutations would be sufficient ... Er ... by being sufficient? What do you mean, "how"? I'm not the one pretending to have a quantitative argument. It would be up to the creationists to show that the number of beneficial mutations they calculate can have happened are insufficient to explain the observed effects. Instead, since they can't do that, they obfuscate the distinction between beneficial mutations and neutral mutations, and they tell lies. Once I've pointed out that their argument is bullshit, I feel that my work here is done.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 54 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 8:38 PM | | CoolBeans has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 57 by CoolBeans, posted 03-09-2013 12:49 AM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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Hmmm.. True but to be honest I dont understand why they are jus base pair mutations? Why cant they be full genes?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-09-2013 12:33 AM | | Dr Adequate has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 58 of 64 (692987)
03-09-2013 3:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 50 by CoolBeans 03-08-2013 7:38 PM
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quote:
So there would be 1667 beneficial base pair mutations and neutral mutations to account for our species. Other than that I cant think of anything other than gene expression. Is there anything wrong with ReMine's calculation's or results?
Assuming that Haldane's rough estimate is right (and it probably isn't). It would be a maximum of 1667 alleles fixed by hard selection. Each allele would likely include multiple mutations (mostly neutral) and the beneficial mutations need not be point mutations either (and it would be incredibly unlikely for all of them to be). Even excluding neutral mutations a figure of more than 1667 base pairs is easily possible.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 50 by CoolBeans, posted 03-08-2013 7:38 PM | | CoolBeans has replied |
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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3645 days) Posts: 196 From: Honduras Joined: 02-11-2013
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Message 59 of 64 (693008)
03-09-2013 1:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 58 by PaulK 03-09-2013 3:46 AM
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They are not alleles. They are 1667 beneficial mutations.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 58 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2013 3:46 AM | | PaulK has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 60 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2013 1:57 PM | | CoolBeans has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
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Message 60 of 64 (693010)
03-09-2013 1:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 59 by CoolBeans 03-09-2013 1:40 PM
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No, fixation always refers to alleles. It may work out the same, but it doesn't have to.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 59 by CoolBeans, posted 03-09-2013 1:40 PM | | CoolBeans has not replied |
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