Human Spirit

There is an interesting side discussion going on around Message 368 in the thread Importance of Original Sin.
I think it's an important topic that deserves it's very own thread.This thread is about discussing aspects of the human spirit and how it plays a part in our lives. What is the human spirit?
Some think it is a separate entity (body, mind, spirit) of human existence.
Some think it is a portion of humanity that is linked more with theological idea.
Some think it is a piece of God.
I don't believe any of that.
I think the human spirit is whatever each and everyone of us needs it to be.
I think the human spirit is our own personal junk drawer.
Everyone has a junk drawer at home... the one drawer where little trinkets or minor pieces of information you want to keep around end up. The drawer as the human spirit represents "whatever it is we need it to be."
It can be a source of unimaginable power (hope and will).
It can be a source of entertainment when things are dull.
It can be a source of strength when required, or just an extra laugh with friends.
It's the place that when you need something... maybe not even knowing what that thing is... you can go to that place and find inspiration to continue. Are some people able to judge that another's spirit is weak or strong?
Not unless you let them.
Just like the junk drawer at home, no one knows what you keep for when you need it. Only you. You can open the drawer and show others, but there are likely many hidden compartments that will always only be known to you.
The human spirit certainly can be weak or strong, but no one knows that state except for yourself. It's also possible to trick yourself into thinking your own spirit is healthy when it's actually weak. It's important to be honest with yourself when reflecting on your own personal abilities. How many ways can the spirit be strengthened?
It's varied for each of us.
Anyone claiming that it can only be done one way is only talking about themselves. Perhaps their spirit can only be strengthened in one way, but they are not able to make this claim for other people. Your junk drawer is in your house, not theirs. You can do whatever you want to it (or nothing at all) whenever you'd like. The "organization" within the drawer is your own. Another person's system for finding what helps them may or may not work for you. Does understanding our spirit bring us closer to God?
I'm sure it does for some people.
Some people are very successful keeping a single tool in their junk drawer.
Others prefer a more varied approach.
The important concept is to make an honest review of yourself and stick with what feels right to you.
A junk drawer may or may not be perfect to show to others or be consistently logical or reasonable or absolutely true.
A junk drawer is about being whatever you need it to be. Storing the things you know you need. In order to figure out what those things are, you'll have to be honest with yourself. How is this spirit helpful to human life at all?
It may not be helpful.
But... it makes us us.
Some people need it.
Some people want it.
Some people use it for all it's worth.
Some people ignore it.
Some people are corrupted by it.
It is undefinable and without limitations.I think the human spirit is whatever each and everyone of us needs it to be.
Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.For the forum of Faith and Belief, or maybe Coffee House if this doesn't include enough "God Stuff" (although I think the discussion will naturally revolve around that anyway).

Why would this be a mistake or nave?I can see how some might take this view and abuse it in a selfish, prideful way. But then the mistake would be allowing one's pride or selfish desires to lead one's thoughts. That would be a mistake or nave.However, if understood in a healthy manner, this sort of idea can be very helpful and beneficial.
That would not be a mistake or nave.Are you trying to refer to the possible negative aspects and simply ignore the plentiful positive sides?It's really very similar to your opinion:

quote:

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The reality, however, is that long before we could imagine such things a Creator imagined us and foreknew our intelligence, strength, and limitations. My belief, anyway.

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This idea, if understood in a healthy manner, can be very helpful and beneficial to people.However, if manipulated into a selfish, prideful way... this idea could be abused to support any number of horrible atrocities and simply use the Creator as a scapegoat.It carries possible negative aspects but there's also a plentiful positive side. Doesn't really seem better in any way.The point isn't to accept-what-Phat-believes-because-it-works-well-for-some.
Neither is it to accept-what-Stile-believes-because-that-works-well-for-some.The point is to find what works best for you in a helpful, healthy, beneficial way.
To do this you must be honest with yourself and understand which method (it may be a 3rd or 4th one altogether...) works best for you. That is the only way to live up to our full potential. Maybe something.
Maybe nothing.
As long as there is no indication from this possible-thing... I don't see how it makes a difference.

Exactly.
I wouldn't call it "just something" though.Not having to rely on external stimuli in order to feel good sounds like a rather powerful tool to have.
Without that, it would seem you would be rather dependent on things you have no control over. Yup.
But that's just the basics. As intelligent beings, we're capable of using our intelligence to tap into this existing basic mechanism and use it to help ourselves in a variety of other ways.It's not a replacement for reality.
It's a supplement to help make reality a bit more palatable to us.It's one thing to understand reality.
It's another thing to have fun with it.
It's quite possible to do both.

Yes it is. It's even got the word spirit right there in it. I agree that "plain old enthusiasm and passion" is not spiritual.
However... human spirit is a lot more than this.The human spirit in other people is not limited by this verbal restriction you've attempted.My human spirit includes awe. So there

It wasn't a very good analogy, just something that popped into my head at the time The "ever changing condition" part is what I was trying to get at with the junk-drawer idea. It flows and changes with our current needs and environment. I find it difficult to describe. That generally means I don't understand it too well. But that's a powerful thing. It's difficult to "have no limitations" if you're fully understood...

I think you just didn't understand what I was saying. I wasn't attempting to imply this in any way. Again, this may be what you need.
People are different and different people need different things.
What works for each individual person is a difficult question.
But one thing is known for sure: a single idea/concept/plan isn't going to work for everyone. Because people are too different. I didn't mean to imply that I thought such a thing. Maybe. I don't have any plans to ever stop looking.

Fully agreed.
The human spirit is fairly useless when attempting to determine a truth about reality.
However, if you spend all your time with the goal to truly understand the nature of the universe... you're missing out on a lot of life. Also agreed. People such as this are setting themselves up for failure and disappointment. Or at the least, some cognitive dissonance at some point in time. And I agree to this as well.
It's a good thing that the benefits from the human spirit are not something we need to choose. The placebo effect is a very real, testable and verifiable effect. We just need to go about it in the right way. "The right way," however, tends to be a different for each person.Science has a time and a place.
Human spirit has a time and a place.To deny one is to dwell in a fantasy land.
To deny the other is to dwell in an emotionless wasteland.I'm just saying we each need to find the balance that works for us. And to do that, we need to be honest with ourselves.
But yes, when our priorities/goals shift into "wanting to understand reality" we need to understand the limitations of each aspect.
The same as when our priorities/goals shift into "wanting to help someone feel better" we need to understand the limitations of each aspect again.

This is simply not true, and can be shown to be false.I have faith in hope.
That is... I can believe that things will work out even when all available evidence points to the contrary.When I hope for something, however, I do not substitute that with reality. It is just alongside reality.
Have you ever heard the expression "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst?"
This is, generally, what I tend to do.It gives me an upbeat attitude even when one isn't justified by the available evidence of the situation.
But I do not ignore reality.For example:I play on a slow-pitch baseball team.
Sometimes our team gets very behind in the baseball game and things look very likely that we will lose (we score less runs than the other team each inning, and we are now in the last inning).
I still have an upbeat attitude about playing well and trying to win the game.
This does not mean I ignore the scoreboard. It just means I maintain an upbeat attitude in the face of adversity when the evidence shows we will lose the game.This is a benefit to myself (I do not feel bad and am now capable of continuing to try my best).
This does not substitute reality (I understand we will very likely still lose the game).Therefore "I am saying that (faith) really only offers benefits when it is a substitute for reality" is false. This is only true if you do actually use your faith to replace reality. Because (as you say), once you realize that your faith actually isn't reality... then the illusion is shattered. If you replace reality with your faith then you are gaining the benefits from the illusion. Lose the illusion and you lose the benefits. With this idea, I completely agree with you.But this isn't the idea that I'm talking about.I'm telling you that faith doesn't have to be used in this manner. It can be used to supplement reality. When used alongside reality, the benefits remain even while you're fully aware of reality. This is because you are not replacing or ignoring reality in any way. You're simply adding something (faith) alongside it. Something you can see/feel right alongside reality. Something that you understand is not a part of reality, but you can still gain benefits from. True. Which is why the placebo effect was just an analogy and not an exact replica.
The effects of faith do not have to disappear when you know that the faith is not reality.
The effects can be just as powerful (and sometimes even more powerful) than replacing reality, when you use your faith to supplement reality. It says that faith is a powerful tool.
It says that if we use this powerful tool correctly, we can add benefits to our life whenever we may be in need of them.Aside:
Ever see that old ('80s?) Hercules cartoon where Hercules kept his ring in his belt and whenever he put it on he gained super-human strength? Herc was always losing his ring and couldn't defeat the various bad guy/demon (who all made the same roar-ing noise anyway...) until he found it.
I was at a talent show that had the little centaur character (Newton?) calling out to Hercules: "Why don't you just wear it all the time, Herc? All the time???..." I don't really care what the Bible says. Although I went to Catholic Church every week for about 10-15 years... I never really read the Bible. What I do know about the Bible leads me to think that it is a very unreliable source of information.However, your statement "you either approach the world scientifically or you do not." Is again false.
Maybe not for some people, actually.
But it certainly is false for all people.Some people have the ability to approach situations with a multitude of various tools and/or mindsets.
It is quite possible to approach the world scientifically and not scientifically at different times, even for the same situation.
It is also possible to keep both concepts separate in your mind, and yet use both to approach the same situation at the same time.People can be very versatile.
However, if you'd like to be versatile... Then you'll have to control the parts of the smorgasbord you get to.
I certainly agree that it's quite possible to stay in one section of life and become an expert in that area.
However, there's nothing forcing you to do this.
It's also possible to try many different areas of life.Have you ever heard of the saying "Jack of all trades, but master of none?"
That saying only applies to you if you allow it.
It's also possible to say "Jack of all trades, and master of each."It's up to each of us to be honest with ourselves, identify our strengths and weaknesses, and use that knowledge to expand whatever parts of ourselves we are able to (and would like to) expand.Or not.

As you say, "perhaps that too is part of our human spirit."
I would be very hesitant to ever say that anything is "all the human spirit is" or "the only way to help your spirit grow."
There will always be different methods with varying results for each of us... because people are different.So, we'll just talk about "a method" instead of "the method" for things.One method I use a lot for having a positive attitude in the face of defeat is thinking about how much it matters.Taking sports again...So what if I'm in a losing game and will likely lose the game anyway?
Am I here to win all the games? If so... why not play a bunch of kindergartners? I'm much more likely to win that way...
What do I get at the end of the season if I do happen to win all the games? A cheap T-shirt? Really??Or am I here to see how good I am against others? If so... does winning/losing even matter that much?
Maybe I want to improve, no matter what my skill level is, therefore trying will only help that goal and winning/losing doesn't matter again.Also, tomorrow... is anyone at work going to care about whether or not I won my recreational slow-pitch game last night?
Therefore, maybe I should get whatever I want out of it while playing and not care about winning or not. I like to take the idea that "nothing really matters.." and make it a strength instead of something to fear.If winning the game doesn't really matter... then I'm free to play any way I'd like and get whatever out of it I can.
Therefore... I can play my best and try my best and see what happens just because I want to.Does winning the World Series (seriously... "World Series" that only the USA and a few teams from Canada play in?... ) matter?
-certainly it will matter to more colleagues the day after then winning my slow-pitch game will.
But does it really matter?
What if a terrorist plot is uncovered and a bomb is placed at the World Series?
Do we all stay and see who wins because that really matters? Or do we leave and post-pone the game because other things are more important?And we end up in the same place... If winning the World Series doesn't really matter... then I can play my best and try my best and see what happens just because I want to. And no amount of terrorist attacks can take that idea away from me.And now for the biggie:Does life really matter? Well, I've never heard a very good answer for that question. Certainly not in any "absolute sense," anyway.So... if life itself doesn't really matter... then I'm free to live it however I'd like and try my best and see what happens just because I want to....that can be a powerful tool and attitude.
It can be good or bad depending on what "however I'd like" actually is... but it is undeniably powerful.

I agree, I'm of the same opinion.There are others, though, (some through no fault of their own) who cannot look at such information and make it a positive thing.
They fear the unknown so much that to have their minds dwell on such an idea causes a lot of anxiety and sometimes even pain.They find other ways to comfort their thoughts. I can see how the idea of an all-powerful, all-caring, all-controlling God would be helpful... but then there's the drawback of resting your faith on an illusion that may conflict with reality at some point in time. But, maybe... such a caveat isn't important to those who go that route.. and they can then access all the benefits of the human spirit anyway.It doesn't make sense to me. But... making sense "to Stile" isn't a requirement for someone else's spirituality. Yes. There are plenty of things that matter to me as well.In fact, let's say there actually was an absolute, objective "meaning of life" that we became aware of.
Even given that fact... I'm still of the opinion that things that matter to me are more important (to me) and therefore would take precedent over this absolute, objective "meaning of life" just because I am me.Therefore, it doesn't even matter whether or not life "really matters" in any objective, absolute way. It would be interesting... but it really wouldn't make a difference in what's important to me. I may choose to accept it as important, but again.. that would be because I find it subjectively important to me... not because of it's objective nature.The idea that an absolute, objective meaning of life (regardless of whether or not it exists) should actually have any power over anyone just because it's objective, or from some Creator is based on fear, not truth.

I agree that the definition of "faith" is rather vague and mostly useless.I took a music 101 course in University about 10 years ago or so. The professor said that the definition of "music" was, basically:"Any combination of sounds or silences that anyone considers to be music."Which is, really, kind of a useless definition.
But there are "formal compositions" that are just recordings of what most of us would call "noise." Or even simply absolute silence. And these are considered to be "music."I think "faith" is of the same sort of thing. It's what we need it to be, within the realm of the idea of "faith."
You may not think what I call "faith" is faith... just the same that many people don't think what other's call "music" is music... but that's just not how it works (all the time).For me, this optimism vs. faith issue is too fine of a hair to split. To me, what we're talking about is "faith" whether or not it can or can't be called optimism if you look at it from another angle. To me, they are the same thing. "Human spirit" is an aspect of faith, as "optimism" is an aspect of faith. Neither is required to have faith, but most people use those terms or something similar when discussing faith. I don't think "spirit" is a separate entity from us in any way. I don't think we have "a body" and "a spirit" that can be separated. But I'm open to be proven wrong.
However... I would like to add that I don't have a problem with someone believing otherwise either... thinking that the human spirit is separate from the human body could just be their own method for dealing with their spiritual side. As long as they don't use that knowledge to hurt other people... I don't really care how the conceptual idea is held. Yes, I agree that "a separate spirit that is the principal entity" is the commonly-used way to think about these things. Sorry if I caused any confusion assuming otherwise. I'm more of the "esprit de corps" way, if you're wondering. But, really, I don't think such distinctions matter so much. I think what matters is how you use your spiritual ideas... how they help you, how you gain strength from them... and whether or not you use those ideas to hurt other people.I think the human spirit can be used to gain great personal strength... or used to cause great pain to other people. Therefore, I'm more worried about how it's used rather than where it comes from.

Perhaps.I can't say you're wrong... I haven't studied the subject like that (formally or scientifically). Neither do I know if study of the subject has advanced to the point of being able to make any conclusions about the matter yet.However, I could just as easily also say "maybe the sum of our parts is just a lot more powerful than you give credit for."It doesn't take away anything from your story.
Your story is a good example of the power of the human spirit (yours as well as hers).
The thing to take away from the story is that the human spirit is a powerful tool.Where that power comes from or how it comes about is (to me)... secondary and unrequired when tapping into that power.You may think the human spirit is powerful because "we are more than the sum of our parts."
I may think the human spirit is powerful because "the sum of our parts really is that powerful."Does such a minor point matter?To me, not at all.
I don't think our spirit is separate from us. But, really, I don't care whether or not our spirit is separate from us. If tomorrow I found out, evidentially, that our spirit is indeed separate from us... it wouldn't alter anything important about how powerful the human spirit is to me in any way at all.To me... that is very important.(I'm not saying the following applies to you, now I'm just rambling in a very general sense)
If the power of your human spirit relies on something... then you may be doing it wrong and not getting all the power out of it that you can.
If it relies on believing "we are more than the sum of our parts.." what happens if you ever realize we are not?
If it relies on believing "we are not more than the sum of our parts.." what happens if you ever realize we are?
If it relies on believing in an idea of (say) an all powerful-God that protects us and controls the universe... what happens if you ever realize this can't possibly be true?
If it relies on anything at all... what happens if you ever realize that such a thing isn't true or valid?The human spirit doesn't have to rely on anything.
Just as your arm doesn't have to rely on a concept.
You have an arm merely by being born human (if you're lucky, anyway...)
You have a human spirit merely by being born human (if you're lucky, anyway...)You get it for free... taking the free human spirit and adding a complication to it (basing it on a concept of some kind...) can weaken it.
What if you based the existence of your arm on the idea that it fits into your shirts? Then you gain or lose some weight... Does this mean you no longer have an arm? Of course not... in the same vein... maybe we are not more than "the sum of our parts"... but that wouldn't mean the feelings that overwhelmed you on finding that shirt are any less powerful than they were before.To be clear, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with holding these ideas.
In fact, if you know that you gain strength by thinking this way, then I would actually encourage you to continue.
I'm just saying that there are alternatives, and they may or may not be a better path for you.I'm just saying I think it can weaken our confidence in our human spirit if we base the idea of the human spirit on anything at all. Because it isn't necessary to do so.
Basing your idea of the human spirit on such things opens up the future possibility to finding out that they may be false... then what happens to your idea of the human spirit?It's quite possible to think these ideas are true (in a "best educated guess based on my experience as a human so far" sort of way)... and not base your idea of the human spirit on them. That way, regardless of whether or not the idea is ever proven false or true... you will always be able to rely on and have access to the powers of your human spirit.I think that's a better way to go about it.TL/DR (Too Long, Didn't Read)
Having said all that: My response pretty much boils down to:If this works for you, keep it up.
It doesn't work for me... so I do something different.However, the crux of your story: Is equally powerful to the both of us.
Well, probably you a bit more 'cause I never met her... But I hope you see what I mean.I see no connection from your story to the conclusion that "we are so much more than the sum of our parts."
(I don't mean any offence... I don't know how to say such a thing without sounding condescending... it's not as if I know the phrase to be false, or anything...)

Good point. I don't think we're all possessed with the same human spirit.
People are different... that extends to our connection/availability/desire to use our human spirit.I think the human spirit is an aspect of having an intelligent mind.
Therefore, it's based on our brains (...somehow...)
Therefore... some people will be able to use it better than others. Just as some people are able to use their arms and legs better than others.Of course, what's "better" is kind of up to the individual. Especially since it isn't exactly as physical as "arms and legs" are.
This is the part where we get to make what we have work for us. The limitations in controlling/affecting our feelings are only imposed by our own imagination (as far as I can tell).I don't think the human spirit determines if we're kind or not. I think we do that ourselves through the decisions we make and the priorities we hold. (Do we want to help others? Or help ourselves? At which times?) I agree that this observation is true.I guess the interesting stuff gets back to your first statement: If we can define the idea and identify where it comes from... maybe we can learn how to manipulate it/use it for our own benefit as much as possible.My definition is along the lines of the junk-drawer idea.
The human spirit can be whatever we need it to be in order to affect or control our emotional status.
From what I can tell, it's nothing more than using our imagination to craft ideas that affect our state of mind. The resulting state of mind can have physical results (like laughing, or rage).Something along the lines of this:
-our "physical results" are governed by our brain/body releasing/controlling certain chemicals and/or electrical impulses. Like an adrenaline spike when something surprises us.
-it seems to me that it is initiated by our brain's perception of the world (from our 5 senses, through triggering certain areas of our brain, resulting in physical changes)
-it occurs to me that this process can be "manually" kickstarted or controlled by simply imagining the correct idea to trigger those same certain areas of our brain (think of something excited, become excited... brain still releases adrenaline).If we're scared, it is possible to rely on our human spirit to imagine an idea that gives us the strength and courage to not-be-scared.
If we're sad, it is possible to rely on our human spirit to imagine an idea that gives us the feeling of being happy.
If we're angry, it is possible to rely on our human spirit to imagine an idea that lessons our frustrations.It also seems to work in reverse, though... we can rely on our human spirit to make ourselves (and sometimes others) angry, scared and confused....or something like that, maybe?

I think the measure of control we have is different for each person.
I also think it's possible to get better at controlling such things as well.I certainly agree that genetics and our environment are large factors on the control we have of our human spirit.Once we are aware of it, and use our intelligence to focus on it and practice using it... I think we can increase our level of control. But I do not think this would "release us" from genetic and environmental factors completely. Then again, maybe certain people would be able to reach such a height?Our control can be affected by brain damage.
It can also be affected by overwhelming emotions brought on by the environment we find ourselves in.But, it can also be affected by ourselves using our own intelligence.I'm just talking about doing what we're able to do I'm not trying to imply that we can do more or become super-humans or anything like that. Unfortunately, I can't do anything but agree.
My wife suffers from depression at times (she's a rape/torture/kidnapping victim when she was young, has now been diagnosed with Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder).
She certainly has a difficult time dealing with her human spirit. And (at certain times) it is very clear that her environment is the direct factor causing certain issues. It's also clear that she makes progress over the years and learns how to control certain levels and aspects. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.I agree that "that impetus and ability has to come from who we are originally.."
I think that the ability is nothing more than our imagination and our awareness. Those are fairly basic abilities. Although (sadly) still not available to everyone they certainly are available to the vast majority. At least as a starting point, anyway.But what do you mean by "humility is the only proper course?"
Can we not use our imagination to stimulate certain feelings within ourselves and also be humble? Or were you talking about something else I'm just not picking up on?Maybe you mean this along the lines of arrogance-caused-blindness? I'd agree with that, if it's what you're implying. I agree... but I would add that this is too general of a statement to be true all the time. I'm sure there are many pathways to "genius."Going back to a physical example.
There are obviously people born with athletic abilities beyond others. However, even the great naturals are made better through physical training and practice.
And, maybe the not-so-athletically-endowed will ever play competitive sports, but they too are quite capable of "getting better" (from wherever they are at) through practice.I think our human spirit is the same way.
We all have different levels, and we're all capable of reaching different heights.
If we're interested in increasing our proficiency of controlling or dealing with our emotions and human spirit... this idea of working with our imagination and how it affects our psychological status seems to be a pathway for practice.Just as it is imperative for us to exercise our physical side in order to be healthy... I think it's equally important to exercise our human spirit. We're emotional beasts. To deny such a thing seems... needlessly difficult, to me. I think it's better to accept what we are and use our abilities to our full advantage. I completely agree with this aspect. I think that "the amazing things humans are capable of" is not a case of us being more than the sum of our parts... just a case of us not quite understanding what all our parts can do.Sort of an atheist vs. theist idea going on in there somewhere, too...I still don't see this as an important issue to nail down, though. It's the stuff we can identify and what we want to do with them that's interesting to me.

Perhaps there is some level of separation.
It may not be some strange "metaphysical" separation, though.
A similar level of separation exists between ourselves and our physical extremities like our arms and legs.Again, brain damage can affect our control of our appendages.
Overwhelming environmental stimuli can also affect our control of our appendages (being surprised... reflex motions...)
And, obviously, we can use our intelligence to consciously affect our appendages.I think the relation between our control over our physical appendages and our control over our human spirit is very similar and may even be exactly the same.
I think we just practice the control over our physical body a lot more than we practice our control over our emotional/psychological status. Very true.It's also humbling to remember that the reason we have the time and leisure to think about these things and post them on the internet is because we are not worried about the next time we will find food, or safety (or at least a reasonable illusion of it).Some famous guy once said something like "discussion of morality is for the rich... those who have the leisure to think about such things. A man who steals bread to avoid starvation isn't worried about the moral issues at hand."Discussing the human spirit may well be in the same boat. Yup. Any and all "control" we think we have may very well just be an illusion. But, until we can find more evidence one way or another... the current evidence seems to say we do have some level of control in the situation. As long as our intelligence is sufficiently mature, anyway. I wouldn't be surprised.
I don't think we'll be privileged to see evidence one way or the other, though. That sort of proof may be lost to the pages of history. Close enough. "Human Spirit" is a topic with a lot of leeway.