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Author | Topic: Why is evolution so controversial? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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student exchange programme.... More likely a 'buffoon' exchange program. You Brits and your spelling, it's as if you think that you invented English.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
I think what Faith was trying to say is that we are unlikely to find a cow skeleton down there even if the earth were only 6000 years old and that we have deliberately picked something difficult to find. If the earth is only 6000 years old, cow skeletons in those lower strata should be pretty easy to find, but we haven't. If her scenario was correct all the fossils in the world would be a jumbled, totally mixed mess. There would be no layering.
By having a list of things and giving general ways for creationists to compose examples of their own, the impression of deck stacking is avoided. Of course there is more reliance on the logical thought processes of creationists... Maybe we should have a thread where we list all the things we can think of that could falsify the ToE. The deck actually is stacked. It's stacked with all the evidence that confirms the ToE. That overwhelming stack of evidence does completely falsify Faith's arguments in genetics, evolution, geology, and the flood. Every single argument she has ever made in the science discussions has been flattened by the stacked deck of evidence. Never once has she presented a valid piece of evidence or demonstrated an understanding of a scientific subject. What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Tanypteryx writes: If the earth is only 6000 years old, cow skeletons in those lower strata should be pretty easy to find, but we haven't. If her scenario was correct all the fossils in the world would be a jumbled, totally mixed mess. There would be no layering. [Faith]"You're forgetting that this is an immense flood and would behave differently than normal floods. It would sort sediment into different layers, and it would also sort animals and plants into these layers in a way precisely resembling an evolutionary progression (which is what huge floods do), and it would also transport entire burrows and egg clutches and even footprints intact. The flood will create both marine and terrestrial layers (no, it isn't contradictory, you just have no idea what a flood this big can do), and it will keep land animals from being deposited in marine layers, and marine animals from being deposited in terrestrial layers. "The sediment carried and deposited by the flood was eroded from the Earth's surface during the flood, or it wasn't, I can change on a dime on this point. Some canyons were carved by catastrophic releases of water from high altitude lakes left over from the flood, some weren't, but you can't tell which are which, you have to ask me and I'll tell you, though I'll be so vague you'll never know what I'm actually saying, and then I'll accuse you of misrepresenting what I say."[/Faith] --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
In a nutshell; Shapiro denies random mutation and natural selection, and postulates natural genetic engineering. His findings confirm his theory that evolution is not random, that the genetic engineering of the cells is driven by sentient changes in answer to the environmental events that occur. I have shown you in extensive threads that Shapiro is indeed invoking random mutations and natural selection. He just tries to rename them in a bit of showmanship. That's it.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Percy writes: [Faith]"You're forgetting that this is an immense flood and would behave differently than normal floods. It would sort sediment into different layers, and it would also sort animals and plants into these layers in a way precisely resembling an evolutionary progression (which is what huge floods do), and it would also transport entire burrows and egg clutches and even footprints intact. The flood will create both marine and terrestrial layers (no, it isn't contradictory, you just have no idea what a flood this big can do), and it will keep land animals from being deposited in marine layers, and marine animals from being deposited in terrestrial layers. "The sediment carried and deposited by the flood was eroded from the Earth's surface during the flood, or it wasn't, I can change on a dime on this point. Some canyons were carved by catastrophic releases of water from high altitude lakes left over from the flood, some weren't, but you can't tell which are which, you have to ask me and I'll tell you, though I'll be so vague you'll never know what I'm actually saying, and then I'll accuse you of misrepresenting what I say."[/Faith] And she says it all in a tone that implies everyone else are complete idiots for not immediately bowing down and praising her insightful logic and knowledge. She would have more credibility if she told us that god and satan had a wager and satan had created the earth to look 4.5 billion years old just to test our faith in god.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Like these guys you mean: That is not what I meant since that is not what I said. Here it is again. You count the number of scientists who reject evolution, have a degree in the biological sciences, and whose first name is Steve (or a derivation thereof, such as Estaban or Stephanie). I will do the same for the number of scientists who do accept evolution as the best explanation for biodiveristy in biology.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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[Faith]"You're forgetting that this is an immense flood and would behave differently than normal floods. It would sort sediment into different layers, and it would also sort animals and plants into these layers in a way precisely resembling an evolutionary progression (which is what huge floods do), and it would also transport entire burrows and egg clutches and even footprints intact. The flood will create both marine and terrestrial layers (no, it isn't contradictory, you just have no idea what a flood this big can do), and it will keep land animals from being deposited in marine layers, and marine animals from being deposited in terrestrial layers. "The sediment carried and deposited by the flood was eroded from the Earth's surface during the flood, or it wasn't, I can change on a dime on this point. Some canyons were carved by catastrophic releases of water from high altitude lakes left over from the flood, some weren't, but you can't tell which are which, you have to ask me and I'll tell you, though I'll be so vague you'll never know what I'm actually saying, and then I'll accuse you of misrepresenting what I say."
[/Faith] --Percy
To think that Faith has the audacity to accuse others of adhering to unfalsifiable claims. Her ultimate explanation is, "The Flood acted against every known geologic and physical process in order to produce a fossil record that exactly matches the known and observed processes of evolution acting over millions of years".
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If the earth is only 6000 years old, cow skeletons in those lower strata should be pretty easy to find, but we haven't. Fossils are always tough to find. I'm not really trying to defend Faith's comment. I know that it is not defensible. What I am saying that the comment is that it is not flat out stupid given a high level of ignorance and arrogance of the commentor. I was trying to leave it as something a little more positive than that but you guys pushed me to be more specific. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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quote: I'm sure there are lots of surprises and equally lots of problems that were solved. But there were no occasions where storks were found to be closely related to, say, worms or dogs and if we found any it would be a real problem - equivalent to the rabbit in the cambrian but very easy to find - unlike the rabbit.
quote: We'd have to wouldn't we? Because the current one wouldn't fit. If we found that the stork and the vulture had totally different molecular makeup and pigs and horses another, it would make a proper mess. and if the toE was wrong, it could easily have done that. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Fossils are always tough to find. Indeed. However, when you fail to find a single mammal, from a cat to a gopher to a rabbit, in the Devonian or anything below it . . . I think a light bulb should go off. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Taq writes: Bolder-dash writes: Like these guys you mean: That is not what I meant since that is not what I said. Here it is again. You count the number of scientists who reject evolution, have a degree in the biological sciences, and whose first name is Steve (or a derivation thereof, such as Estaban or Stephanie). I will do the same for the number of scientists who do accept evolution as the best explanation for biodiveristy in biology. Reference links: The main "Project Steve" page - Project Steve | National Center for Science Education The "Steve" list - List of Steves | National Center for Science Education You are implying (at the minimum) that all the scientists of the "Project Steve" list have biology related degrees. Not all do, and that was what Bolder-dash was pointing out in message 152. The "Project Steve" list (see main page) seems to require some variety of science degree but not a biology related degree (although many do indeed have biology related degrees). I repeat one of Bolder-dash's examples:
quote: I think that Bolder-dash had indeed made a valid point, to counter anyone who promotes the "Project Steve" list as being made up of only biological scientists. MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
You are implying (at the minimum) that all the scientists of the "Project Steve" list have biology related degrees. Actually, I never mentioned Project Steve in any of my posts, although those in the know would have jumped to that conclusion.
I think that Bolder-dash had indeed made a valid point, to counter anyone who promotes the "Project Steve" list as being made up of only biological scientists. I agree. The NCSE should edit that list. Just by a quick skim, I would say that around 70% of the Steve's on that list would fit my criteria. If we cut the list in half, I would also suspect that we would have 100 fold more Steve's that support evolution than the number Steve's who reject it.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Indeed. However, when you fail to find a single mammal, from a cat to a gopher to a rabbit, in the Devonian or anything below it . . . I think a light bulb should go off. A sudden moment of endarkenment? Or do you mean "on"?
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
A sudden moment of endarkenment? Or do you mean "on"? "On" would be better, but "off" sadly still works in twisted American vernacular. It is one of those cases where words take on the opposite meaning, such as "setting an alarm off" means that you triggered it on.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Well, I won't be surprised if American Fundie College kids are taught:
Namibia/Russia, same evil place. They all vote for that gay Muslim Communist Obama Although, him being in Russia might explain the biology teacher he claimed to have had. Probably trained in the Lysenko era.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.
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