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Author Topic:   All Knowing God proves problematic
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 67 of 82 (733803)
07-21-2014 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Blue Jay
12-11-2008 10:49 AM


Foreknowledge & Freewill(or lack of)
The weatherman can "know" what will happen tomorrow, the spy can "know" where the Nazis are going to bomb tomorrow, an alligator can "know" where the zebras are going to cross the river, and I can "know" that my baby is about to take off walking across the room while my wife isn't looking, but none of these imply that the observer's knowledge has any control over the actor's actions.
This has also been my position all along. It is irrelevant if God knew what I was going to do before I did it. I still made the decisions and choices to follow a specific course. To me it is irrelevant if God foreknew it or not.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Blue Jay, posted 12-11-2008 10:49 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 68 of 82 (733804)
07-21-2014 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by caldron68
12-17-2008 7:46 PM


Re: a simple hand-wave
After reading all of the posts in this thread it is clear to me that if there is a God, then that God simply set the clock in motion and has no control over what is actually going to happen. i.e., a truly compassionate, loving, personal God cannot be omniscient and allow man to die in truly awful ways unless he has no control over how things are going to work out.
I might add that I believe that God chooses to have no control. Humanity is a grand experiment and is responsible for our collective destiny. God may well know and yet not interfere with this process.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

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 Message 53 by caldron68, posted 12-17-2008 7:46 PM caldron68 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 07-22-2014 12:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 71 of 82 (733984)
07-23-2014 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
07-22-2014 12:39 PM


Re: a simple hand-wave
I could end world hunger by snapping my fingers but I choose not to.
You have given them enough food to go around, yet they choose to hoard it for a few of them. They will never learn to share if you simply give everyone food. That is their job.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

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 Message 69 by ringo, posted 07-22-2014 12:39 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 73 by ringo, posted 07-23-2014 6:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 72 of 82 (733985)
07-23-2014 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
12-11-2008 11:15 AM


Special Pleading?
Assume God is omniscient and man has free will. God therefore knows what a person will do before he does it, and a person is free to choose what he wants to do.
But if a person decides to do something different than what God knows he will do, then by simple logic the part of the initial assumption about God's omniscience is incorrect.
Or if a person always ends up doing precisely what God knows he will do, then by simple logic the part of the initial assumption about free will is incorrect.
There cannot be Godly omniscience and free will by God's subjects in the same universe.
First of all, how would we test it? How would we know what God
knew and did not know before the fact? Second, if free will is defined as "doing something other than what God knows" I would argue that yes, we don't have true free will nor should we. You don't get to out think God. Ain't gonna happen. Whether or not you judge Him evil for foreknowing your damnation, for example, matters not since even if He did foresee it, you chose it. The protest that you simply couldn't have done anything nor chosen any way to avoid it is whining after the fact at best.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

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 Message 11 by Percy, posted 12-11-2008 11:15 AM Percy has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 74 of 82 (734006)
07-24-2014 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
07-23-2014 6:07 PM


Re: a simple hand-wave
And if God simply existed to provide for our needs, we would never grow. Besides...God owes us nothing, anyway.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 07-23-2014 6:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 11:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 76 by Diomedes, posted 07-24-2014 1:41 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 77 of 82 (734065)
07-25-2014 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Diomedes
07-24-2014 1:41 PM


Attitude
Its amazing to observe the attitudes of those who challenge God. Here we have the Creator of all seen and unseen, of which you are unimpressed. You then state the attitude and morality that such a Creator should have and then go so far as to lobby for an even more powerful government to discipline Him when He fails your standards!
The bottom line is that a Creator of all seen and unseen is so far above our limited perception and intelligence that to even think we have the capability to judge Him is at best laughable.
I suppose we can pretend that we can be as gods, however.
God owes us nothing. He gave us the ability to get along (to a degree) without need of Him. We can claim that He should be responsible for His creation, but good luck with an indictment.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Diomedes, posted 07-24-2014 1:41 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 10:22 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 79 by vimesey, posted 07-25-2014 10:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
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