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Author Topic:   The Bully Swarm Thread, off the Earth Science Curriculum thread
Faith
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Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 87 of 155 (752353)
03-10-2015 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by New Cat's Eye
03-10-2015 4:11 PM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
The evidence is quite visible.
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 Message 82 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-10-2015 4:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 155 (752354)
03-10-2015 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by edge
03-10-2015 4:13 PM


Re: waves, big waves, small waves, breaking news about breaking waves
I'd like you to see what I see and acknowledge it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by edge, posted 03-10-2015 4:13 PM edge has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 89 of 155 (752355)
03-10-2015 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by edge
03-10-2015 4:15 PM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
I didn't say it has to fit in the Flood, but they do, that's why they are spending all that time on particles.

Why absurd. Because nature doesn't sort itself into slabs of rocks containing the entire flora and fauna of an era. Our era isn't going to be reduced to a particular sedimentary rock either. Every time I look at the walls of the Grand Canyon I wonder how anybody can think those discrete units of rock could actually represent identifiable time periods on earth. I guess all I can say is it's obvious.

Why do I think it's been missed for so long? Because you are all looking at the trees instead of the forest.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 155 (752356)
03-10-2015 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tanypteryx
03-10-2015 4:40 PM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
You have not been paying attention. There is no sudden disturbance occurring now. You are just making that up. We have pointed out hundreds of times in dozens of threads that the geological processes of erosion and deposit and uplift have been happening for 4 billion plus years and the evidence is right there for anyone to see, buried in the rock layers.

Yes I know you can't see it. I didn't say the disturbance was occurring right now. It occurred after all the strata were in place though. I'm talking as usual about those neat layers you can see in the Grand Canyon that were laid down before the canyon was cut and all that erosion above the canyon to the Grand Staircase. And the known layers of rock that span huge areas of the North American continent. Every time I contemplate it I wonder why nobody sees what I sere in it.

I believe this pattern is true across the globe. Wherever there's a salt layer shown in cross section you can see for instance that the layers above it sag right along with the distortion it creates. That shouldn't be so if the layers were supposedly laid down over millions of years. The more recent layers should have a flat surface. And the salt should have long since dissipated too, through the domes it makes in the layers above, if we're talking millsions upon millions of years. All this seems quite open and shut to me.

But there are places some point to that they think show disturbance during the laying down of the strata. Some of it's ambiguous, but really, there should be NO place on earth where the strata could have accumulated miles deep for thousands of square miles over multiple millions of years years without being disturbed on the order of a huge canyon's being cut into them and huge quantities of matter eroded away such as we see at the Kaibab Plateau and the stairs of the Grand Staircase.

But oh well, I know it's always going to be rationalized away.

It would be nice, though, if somebody would look at it and see what I see.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 155 (752377)
03-10-2015 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tanypteryx
03-10-2015 7:42 PM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
The erosion between layers you all like to make into evidence for surface exposure, is minuscule, itty bitty barely visible erosion if you're looking at the walls of the Grand Canyon for instance, and that is what you are comparing with the surface of the earth now with its hills and mountains and valleys and cliffs and canyons. But that doesn't create any dissonance for you. Amazing but true.

I believe this pattern is true across the globe. Wherever there's a salt layer shown in cross section you can see for instance that the layers above it sag right along with the distortion it creates. That shouldn't be so if the layers were supposedly laid down over millions of years.
Why shouldn't it be so? What is your reasoning? How do you explain it then? I think Edge explained this a long time ago in one of the Grand Canyon threads. I think he said that because the salt is less dense than the overlying layers, it is deformed by the weight and pressure of them. We also know that the rock layers are not completely rigid and will sag rather than leave an empty void. It seems obvious that as the deposited sediment builds up over millions of years this would be the result. More and more weight bearing down on the salt./qs\ What is the mechanism that makes the salt dissipate? Wait a minute.....the salt makes domes AND the layers above sag? I don't understand what you are saying here.

I believe the sagging is caused by the loss of salt as it rises up through the layers above forming domes that eventually reach the surface. By dissipate I just mean some point must come when all the salt has risen to the top, but every cross section shows it in process. Should this take millions of years? Apparently they move and change fast enough to cause a hazard in some places. Sounds like they move a lot faster than millions of years.

I meant to say thousands of square miles, not years, but the phone rang and I didn't get it finished. Did go back and correct it.

About Grand Canyons everywhere, no, but the erosion between layers is tiny compared to the surface of the earth, and why should the earth's surface have been so different hundreds of millions of years ago than it is today, with our hills and valleys and so on?

Never mind, I KNOW you can rationalize it all away, as can edge and anybody else here. Itty bitty erosion proves it was at the surface of the earth and it isn't surprising at all that no gigantic disturbances like the Grand Canyon occurred for hundreds of millions of years, and it makes perfect sense that one era should be characterized by limestone and another by sandstone, and that each era has just those creatures that are found buried in those particular sediments and no others. Earth time isn't ongoing, it occurs in sharply demarcated time periods with sharply demarcated collections of life forms.

To me this is absurd in the extreme, but to Geology it makes perfect sense.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 155 (752378)
03-10-2015 11:34 PM


Yes, ancient rivers, buried rivers, buried canyons. Sigh. It's all just the effects of underground water running between the layers after the Flood. There are still underground rivers. It's all quite consistent with the Flood. Oh but we must have it all to be former landscapes. Sigh.

How is it that layers built on top of former "landscapes" with such nice straight horizontal lines?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 155 (752379)
03-10-2015 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
03-10-2015 11:09 PM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
Yeah well once you've assumed the millions of years anything's possible. However, what is NOT possible is that layers that are deposited on top of a sagging layer over millions of years would follow the contour of that layer. They would fill in the sag and their surface would be horizontal.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 99 by jar, posted 03-10-2015 11:09 PM jar has responded

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 Message 105 by jar, posted 03-10-2015 11:41 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 155 (752381)
03-10-2015 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
03-10-2015 11:40 PM


Re: the Flood don't fit in.
There was one Biblical Flood.
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 Message 103 by jar, posted 03-10-2015 11:40 PM jar has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 155 (752384)
03-10-2015 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
03-10-2015 11:41 PM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
But again Faith, what we see today is that layers being laid down DO follow the contour of the layers laid down yesterday.

Gravity makes that impossible

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 119 by AZPaul3, posted 03-11-2015 8:52 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 155 (752414)
03-11-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by herebedragons
03-11-2015 10:39 AM


I would like to see the Grand Canyon, I'm sure it is breathtaking. All I can say about the size of it is that everybody always underestimates the size of the Flood.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 125 of 155 (752415)
03-11-2015 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by AZPaul3
03-11-2015 8:52 AM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
Very cute but what I'm talking about is the normal sedimentary rocks that we find in the Geo Column. They all deposited horizontally originally, that's kind of a law you know. So when I say that's what would happen in the example given I'm talking about the same phenomena, sediment depositing horizontally. Snow clings to mountainsides, but the sediments all deposit horizontally. You can tell by looking at the walls of the Grand Canyon. This has been discussed on many a thread too and others actually agreed with me about it, because there is nothing to dispute about it.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 155 (752416)
03-11-2015 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by edge
03-11-2015 1:03 AM


I'm aware of being insulting but it can't be helped. I think what I think. I guess I could say I'm sorry it's insulting but I can't stop it from being insulting.
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 Message 114 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 1:03 AM edge has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 127 of 155 (752417)
03-11-2015 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by edge
03-11-2015 12:58 AM


Re: the Flood don't fit in.
I was answering jar who said for the millionth time that there were many biblical floods. No, there was only one. You hardly ever read in context, why is that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 12:58 AM edge has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 155 (752421)
03-11-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by edge
03-11-2015 12:57 AM


Yes, ancient rivers, buried rivers, buried canyons. Sigh. It's all just the effects of underground water running between the layers after the Flood. There are still underground rivers. It's all quite consistent with the Flood. Oh but we must have it all to be former landscapes. Sigh.

Well, why not? The maps you've seen look an awful lot like modern terrain, so why should its origin be different?

That terrain is seen through the earth, though, right, with some kind of special imaging? You aren't looking directly at surface but something almost diagrammatic? You can see outlines of formations and figure out depths or something like that, but you aren't looking at anything like what we see on the surface of the earth. So you have to reconstruct what you are seeing.

And underground rivers? Seriously? Don't you think there is a difference between solution-formed caves and river drainages?

I'm talking about how it all looks on that imaging. It looks like rivers and canyons drawn in diagram if I'm thinking of the right imaging sources.

How is it that layers built on top of former "landscapes" with such nice straight horizontal lines?

Because that is how valleys fill in. Have you ever seen how a lake fills in a valley? Why would sediments in the lake be any different?

You're talking about an enormous quantity of sediment to fill in an actual landscape with hills and valleys. What happens to the usual idea of how the strata were deposited layer by layer? Do core samples show you that something else is going on here than the usual deposition of strata?

ABE: and again I'm getting sensations of absurdity. Why on earth would a single sediment just come along and cover an entire landscape?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 12:57 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 03-11-2015 11:44 AM Faith has responded
 Message 132 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 11:51 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31656
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 129 of 155 (752424)
03-11-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by edge
03-11-2015 12:53 AM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
The Great Unconformity is like the disturbances that occurred after all the strata were laid down, it is not like the erosion between the layers. I think it did occur after the strata were laid down, but even if it occurred in the Precambrian time frame as you all think it did, it still leaves big questions about why there was such a huge long interval afterward when no such disturbances were occurring, hundreds of millions of years of placid surface conditions on this earth. I guess that doesn't bother you, as I keep noting.

I wish I could say it clearer about the salt layers. All the cross sections show sedimentary layers above the salt in perfectly typical arrangements as the strata normally form, except that all of them follow the sag of the salt layer. The way I would interpret this, of course, is that they were all laid down in the Flood, perfectly horizontal as usual, and then the salt got wet and started rising and the whole stack deformed along with it.

But on the theory of deposition over millions of years I have to suppose that the salt didn't start rising until all those other layers were in place above it. Is that the accepted timing?There is no other way to account for their all following the contour of the sag, except that one does have to wonder how completely solidified rock could deform in such a plastic-looking way, one would think it would break.

But then if the salt began deforming and rising at any point before all those upper layers were in place, the usual timing of that process being many millions of years, then only those already in place would deform along with it and any layers deposited above that would fill in the sag and have the flat horizontal surface they always have.

I'm probably not getting this said clearly enough. Your answers really didn't address anything I had in mind.


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 Message 134 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 12:01 PM Faith has responded

  
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