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Author Topic:   The Bully Swarm Thread, off the Earth Science Curriculum thread
jar
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Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 7 of 155 (752163)
03-09-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-09-2015 10:47 AM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
There are things that we can know for sure though Faith, and that is the purpose of the other thread.

We can know for sure that neither of the Biblical Floods ever happened and the goal of the other thread is to help develop a curriculum to educate those people who have been told that the floods might have happened.

We can know for sure that Earth is not 6000 years old but at least 4 billion years old. and the goal of the other thread is to help develop a curriculum to educate those people who have been told that the earth is young.

In fact, your post is a great example to show such folk to help them understand why all evidence shows the floods never happened and that the Earth is billions of years old.

You said ...

Faith writes:

So since the KT boundary asteroid ribbon occurs high in the geologic column I'd suppose that the rain had long since stopped and the full depth of the flood had been reached some time ago as well, so I'd postulate that the KT boundary powder had plenty of opportunity to float for a very long time on relatively placid water before the water receded enough for it to be deposited on the surface of whatever the last sediment to be deposited was.

... but when folk look at the evidence they find that the iridium layer is often covered by lots of other far heavier, far denser materials. It's not an example of the last sediment laid down.

When combined with the additional evidence of salt beds, the Green River varves, the White Cliffs of Dover and so many many other examples easily seen the Earth simply cannot be only 6000 years old and the Biblical Floods would be useless as an explanation of what actually does exist.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 10:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

jar
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Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 18 of 155 (752190)
03-09-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
03-09-2015 12:31 PM


say what?
Faith writes:

And people really need to stop talking about what "a flood" would do. Any flood anybody has ever seen would be NOTHING like The Flood.

You keep saying really silly stuff like the above yet you never provide any reasoning or evidence of why that might be true.

How would 40 days and 40 nights of rain wear away more granite than tens of thousands of years of water falling over Niagara Falls or any other such water fall?

It really is that simple Faith.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 29 of 155 (752205)
03-09-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
03-09-2015 1:13 PM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
Faith writes:

Actually I was giving better interpretations of the Flood against superficial kneejerk interpretations.

And that's the problem with your position Faith, you offer only interpretations where all the others have been offering evidence and explanations.

You need to provide the actual model and method that explains what is seen. Just claiming the flood did it or it's in the Bible carries no weight or worth.

You claim the rain and flood was different than what we see today. Then you need to explain how it would be different than water cascading over a water fall, monsoon flooding, annual river floods and all the other examples we see today.

You need to provide the method that can produce layer of chalk seen at the White Cliffs of Dover in just 6000 years, how to make over six million alternating light and dark, fine and coarse layers in just 6000 years, how to make salt layers hundreds of feet think and buried thousands of feet underground in just 6000 years.

This is the tip, the very tip of the problem you face Faith. There are literally thousands of other things easily explained under an old earth scenario but impossible in a young earth one and the problem for you is that all of the thousands of such examples are not a matter of interpretation but fact, reality.

As a Christian it is very important for me to show folk that it is not necessary to abandon Christianity, only the falsehoods being marketed by the snake oil salesmen.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 1:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 32 of 155 (752208)
03-09-2015 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
03-09-2015 1:28 PM


say what?
Faith writes:

Scale, proportion, ocean currents and waves which are not part of the usual local flood. THINK.

What she fails as usual to point out is that we can see and study all those factors today; we can even study ocean currents that totally circle the globe. We can see how mountains effect ocean currents and how waves have absolutely no effects (except on stupid wooden boats filled with animals) when they are higher than a submerged land mass.

We can look at the effects of storms and waves and ocean currents on coasts today and measure erosion and deposition rates.

Faith's unsupported assertions have no weight or value unless she can provide the actual models and methods that explain what is seen today.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 1:52 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 155 (752214)
03-09-2015 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-09-2015 1:52 PM


Re: say what?
Faith writes:

The waves I'm talking about occur after the land mass is exposed. THINK.

Okay. But how is that any different than waves we see today? Where is the evidence of such waves that can be assigned to a single year event?

Again Faith, it is a matter of evidence. We find lots of evidence of waves all over the world, but not tied to any one event or date.

Where is your evidence, model and method?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 1:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-09-2015 1:58 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 2:03 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 39 of 155 (752220)
03-09-2015 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
03-09-2015 2:03 PM


Re: say what?
Faith writes:

Long, tsunaimi-length waves I'm thinking would occur during the phase of the Flood when the water has receded enough to expose the land surface again, not when the land is submerged according to your straw man, and the water is still saturated with sediments and they get deposited on the land the way beach sand gets deposited wave after wave, only it's different sediments and the waves are huge, some spanning whole continents in the early phase of the water's receding, and this would also be affected by the alternations of the tides. Your waves are something else.

And what is the evidence, model or method to create "Long, tsunaimi-length waves"?

What is the model, method and explanation for the water to be saturated with sediments?

Events leave evidence Faith. We can find evidence today for ancient tsunamis, for example in the Norwegian Sea around 6000 BCE or about 2000 years before you think the world began and about 4000 years before the date of the imagined flood.

You keep just making stuff up without any evidence, model or even method or any explanation of what the events you imagine might do.

That is the problem Faith, why Creationism and YEC can never be more than lies and fantasy and why as a Christian it is so important to expose YEC and Creationism as the perversion of the Bible, Christianity and God that they are.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 2:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 2:30 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 48 of 155 (752234)
03-09-2015 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
03-09-2015 2:30 PM


Re: say what?
Faith writes:

The deposition of some of the layers all the way across the North American continent suggests such long waves to me, It would be nice to know where these layers end, what that edge looks like.

What layers, what composition, what model or method explains such deposition?

Evidence Faith.

How can any flood produce any stone?

Faith writes:

Steve Austin's study of the nautiloid layer in the Grand Canyon also showed the direction of the flow of water that carried them along with the sediment that became the Redwall Limestone. It moved from southeast to northwest and covers about four states. Suggests waves moving onto the land from different directions.

Bullshit Faith. How would that suggest such waves and what is the model, method and mechanism to create such waves?

Of course Steve Austin's account is also bullshit. Like you, he does not provide a model, method and mechanism to explain what is seen and as a matter of fact a slurry caused by water sloshing around washing in sea critters would NOT produce what is actually seen at the site.

He is just lying for Christ.

As usual he also fails to explain why no bunnies or mousies or lions or tigers or bears or ohmys got washed in.

Faith writes:

Don't know why you have a problem with the water's being saturated with sediments, turbidity being expected by everyone who discusses the Flood, but an enormous quantity of sediments must have been washed off the land mass into the water in the early stage, along with all the dead things that also ended up buried in the layers.

And so yet again you provide the evidence that the flood never happened. If the sediments were washed off the land then they will not be deposited on the land. If there were lots of dead things then why are there no modern dead things, things that lived in the last 6000 years or so? The material is sand stone. Exactly how did it get formed into stone in only 6000 years? What is the model, method and mechanism that covered that layer and also eroded the covering layers in only 6000 years.

Sorry but Steve Austin's nonsense convinces no one except those who want to believe his bullshit.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 2:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 54 of 155 (752245)
03-09-2015 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
03-09-2015 5:43 PM


too funny.
Faith writes:

Obviously can't get anybody off their entrenched biases to think about this stuff in a reasonable way. Same old nonsense thrown at me that I've answered many times before. Same old accusations, same old silliness. Not up to slogging through it all right now, maybe later.

Once again you show that you have no evidence, no model, no mechanism, no method to explain what is seen today.

That's fine Faith since Young Earth, the Biblical Floods and Creationism are all DeadOnArrival and have been for at least two hundred years.

We understand why you cannot support any of your assertions but you can take comfort that no one else has ever been able to do so either.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 5:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 6:08 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 58 of 155 (752253)
03-09-2015 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
03-09-2015 6:08 PM


Re: too funny.
Faith writes:

Argument by Bullying seems to be a very common method among my opponents.

Bullying?

Do you have any evidence of anyone bullying you?

Or do you think asking for evidence, models, methods and mechanisms to explain the reality we see today is bullying?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 6:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 63 of 155 (752272)
03-09-2015 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
03-09-2015 8:20 PM


why?
Faith writes:

Good grief, of COURSE I'm "making stuff up," that's ALL anyone can do with the one-time event of the long-past Flood.

Why Faith? Why can't you test and examine one-time event of the long ago past?

Is it some magic event that does not leave evidence?

Faith writes:

Same way I work, only I'm looking for ways it COULD work and they aren't and just about all the scenarios the debunkers have in mind are totally inadequate to what the reality must have been, all superficial straw man stuff.

Why Faith.

How does water falling over Niagara Falls for tens of thousands of years wear granite differently than rain falling for 40 days and 40 nights?

How are waves today different than waves during the Biblical floods?

How are currents today different than during the Biblical Floods?

If there was some tsunami why is there no evidence of that event?

What is the model, mechanism or method to produce the chalk layers that became White Cliffs of Dover in only 6000 years?

What is the model, mechanism or method to produce over six million alternating light and then dark layers in only 6000 years?

What is the model, mechanism or method to produce the layers of salt hundreds of feet think and then bury those beds tens of thousands of feet deep in only 6000 years?

It really is simple Faith. All you need to to present the model, method or mechanism to explain the reality of the facts found today.

Edited by jar, : even +t appalin spallin yut agin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 8:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 64 of 155 (752274)
03-09-2015 10:10 PM


Salt of the earth.
Faith claims that the Earth is only about 6000 years old so I thought it might be useful to look at evidence we can see today and see if we can find a model, method or mechanism that would allow what is seen to get created in only 6000 years.

To start with let's look at salt.

There are salt beds all over the earth and here in the US we can find some great examples of salt beds that are hundreds of feet thick and buried tens of thousands of feet deep.

One characteristic of such beds is that they are layered, alternating layers of salt divided by layers of clay.

Now salt is an evaporite, salt water exposed at the surface where evaporation works to increase the salinity until a point where the water is super saturated and dries out.

Then we find a layer of clay or dust or dirt that formed on the surface, then another layer that show salt water sitting undisturbed until evaporation creates super salinity and it dies out.

The multiple layers show that that cycle repeats over and over and over again until the bed is hundreds of feet thick. Some of these salt deposits are so large that they lie beneath many states.

But as i mentioned above these beds that formed on the surface are now buried tens of thousands of feet deep.

So here is the question.

What process, method, model, mechanism can create such salt beds at the surface and then bury them under thousands of feet of rock in only 6000 years?

To keep this simple can we please stick to just the evaporite salt beds until we have found a process, model, method or mechanism that can explain how in only 6000 years what we see in reality can be explained?

Edited by jar, : ralle applin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 155 (752285)
03-10-2015 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-08-2015 9:31 PM


debunkers Faith?
Faith writes:

Retitled this thread because it's been taken over by Flood debunkers who mischaracterize my arguments and put up the usual straw man nonsense. No point in me participating.

Come on now Faith.

The fact is that no one is bullying you and that you keep debunking the flood by your posts.

Far from debunking the flood or young earth others here have actually asked you to support those positions. They have offered you the chance to explain what is seen in the real world as opposed to fantasy.

What is the model, method, process or mechanism to produce the layers of chalk that became the White Cliffs of Dover in just a 6000 year period?

What is the model, method, process or mechanism to produce the over six million alternating light and dark, fine and course layers of the Green River varves in just a 6000 year period?

What is the model, method, process or mechanism to produce the layers of salt and darker clay that are hundreds of feet thick and buried tens of thousands of feet under the surface in just a 6000 year period?

How would a 40 day and 40 night rain wear granite differently than tens of thousands of years of water fall activity?

What is the model, method, process or mechanism to produce long tsunami like waves during or after the flood event and where is the evidence of that wave?

What is the mechanism, process, model or method that allowed the flood to sort critters so that lions and tigers and bears and ohmys never got mixed in with dinosaurs?

No one is debunking the flood Faith or bullying you; just the opposite they are asking you to support the flood, to support Young Earth.

No one is mischaracterizing your arguments but rather begging you to provide arguments, models, explanations, methods, processes that would create what actually exists today.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 9:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 68 of 155 (752296)
03-10-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:19 AM


details
Faith writes:

The way I see it, HBD, somebody gets all involved in trying to prove the Flood didn't happen by getting minutely scientific about how particles settle out of water, as if that is the only possible way the layers could have been formed by the Flood.

But that is all that is important Faith, the details, the model, the process, the method.

Faith writes:

So I just point out that settling out isn't the only way layers could have formed.

Great, so present the scientific details that show how waves could produce the effect being discussed.

And yes Faith, the process, method, mechanics, model you present must explain all of what is seen today.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 77 of 155 (752319)
03-10-2015 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
03-10-2015 1:04 PM


Re: waves, big waves, small waves, breaking news about breaking waves
Faith writes:

Meanwhile how about giving a thought to the absurdity of explaining flat slabs of rocks as eras of time, as I mentioned in Message 71?

Guess what Faith. Folk have actually given thought to slabs of rock.

They have studied how mountains are built up and found it takes lots of time.

They have studied how mountains are weathered and worn down and found that it takes lots of time.

They have studied how the products of weathering get ground finer and finer until it becomes sand and it takes lots of time.

They have studied how the sand gets buried under newer layers, gets compressed and becomes sand stone and it takes lots of time.

They have studied how the layers that were above the sand stone get eroded away exposing the sand stone and it takes lots of time.

Folk have given thought to what is seen Faith and while all the processes are pretty normal, they all take time.

What you are asking is to imagine all those things happened but they happened over night. So it is reasonable for folk to ask you "How? How do you do all those things and it not take lots of time?"

What is the model, mechanism, method, process that explains those flat slabs of rock that does not require eras of time?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 1:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 97 of 155 (752367)
03-10-2015 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by edge
03-10-2015 8:00 PM


where rivers used to run
Technology keeps providing even more evidence.

Today we can actually see things like where the ancient rivers ran, rivers that have been buried for tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, millions of years.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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