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Author Topic:   John Paul refutes Nilsson & Pelger?
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 23 (74362)
12-19-2003 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by John Paul
12-19-2003 5:23 PM


quote:
NO ONE has been able to show that mutations culled by NS could create a vision system. Nillson & Pilger did NOT use real genes or even computer generated copies of the genes involved. Behe shows how difficult it is and NO ONE has refuted or even rebutted him. Please by all means show that statement to be incorrect.
People have rebutted Behe, here is one example. A quote from that page: "When it comes to biochemical processes we are a bit pushed to find intermediates. Behe knows this. It is his trump card. That's why he's discussing biochemistry and not whole organisms where so many intermediates have been found." In other words, biochemical pathways don't fossilize and that is why it is difficult to find intermediates. We do see single celled organisms with a workable vision system (Euglenia) as well as simple visions systems (Planaria). In fact, in nature we see a wide assortment of simple to complex vision systems. What we don't have is a fossil record of biochemical pathways. What Nillson and Pilger put forth is a step by step pathway with increasing fitness or visual acuity. This process of improved fitness over time can be seen in the fossil record with respect to middle ear ossicles, for example.
Another quote from the site above: "Nonetheless the evolution of the proteins of vision from ancestral proteins previously engaged in other activities is no more extraordinary than that of the bones. Anyone prepared to accept that evolution has occurred and natural selection has been operating in the one case should feel able to accept that they also work for the other." That is, fossils quite obviously show a change in morphology over time, why should biochemistry not do the same? Show us how biochemistry in cells does not change even though morphology does and you might have a shot.
If you want more refutations and rebuttals of Behe's work, here are a few:
Jerry A. Coyne, Don Lindsay, just to name a few. Or you can go to this site for a large list of rebuttals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by John Paul, posted 12-19-2003 5:23 PM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by John Paul, posted 12-30-2003 2:11 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 23 (75844)
12-30-2003 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by John Paul
12-30-2003 2:11 PM


Don Lindsay tells me that the eye could evolve in a "handful" of mutations. However he couldn't tell me where those mutations occured or what those mutations were. IOW, he, like all the alleged rebuttals, are nothing but "just-so" stories.
How are Behe's musings anything but just-so stories. That is all IC is, a just-so story. Saying that the flagella has always been exactly like it is today is a just-so story. The burden of evidence for IC syste still needs to be met by Behe, something he doesn't even want to search for it seems. If you take away the just-so stories out of Behe's theory you are left with nothing but a title page.
Maybe the question should be why does Behe focus on biological systems that do not fossilize when fossilized biological systems show a trend towards gradual evolution? Care to explain why the middle ear transitions between reptile and mammal are not perfect examples of an IC system coming about by gradual evolution? If we have examples of an IC system arising due to evolution in the fossil record, why should we assume ID with biochemical systems? These are questions that Behe will never answer with any amount of clarity, just reiteration of his pseudo-theory in the face of mounting counter-evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by John Paul, posted 12-30-2003 2:11 PM John Paul has not replied

  
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