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Author | Topic: Corporate Interests & Democracy's Death Knell | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Is the WTO subject to the US Constitution?
I think it can be argued, convincingly, that both of these steps, and many others lately taken to advance corporate interests, are direct violations of the Constitutional rights of U.S. citizens and in opposition to our country's founding principles respecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
My thought is that it sounds like a Gish Gallop: "Never mind the first stupid thing I said; let's focus on the second." However, since it's caused so much controversy I'm comfortable setting aside the WTO/USDA issue and focusing on state governments banning local democracy. Do you have thoughts on that? Pulling out of international organizations that occasionally disagree with you is stupid. And nobody is "banning local government".
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
It's not a win until you admit the stupidity of the second thing you said, that local democracy is being banned.
If you want to take the win, it's all yours.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Yes, you're equally wrong about both. That relates to Texas' ban on banning fracking, not the WTO/USDA issue. I might not agree with Texas' banning banning but it isn't democracy that they're banning.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
I call it the state level of democracy taking precedence over the local level of democracy. The state's decision is a democratic one regardless of any influence exerted by industry.
What else do you call it when people's right to self-governance is limited by how well their decisions conform to the desires of industry? Jon writes:
If the state decides democratically that that's what local democracy should be, then yes.
Or is democracy still alive and well so long as the city council can decide what day the hog judging will be?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
It's democracy as defined by your own Constitution. I think that's better than defining undemocratic as anything you disagree with.
In other words, democracy by definition and definition only.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Then you need to broaden your awareness. The US Constitution is, by definition , the definition of US democracy.
ringo writes:
I wasn't aware that the U.S. Constitution was a dictionary. It's democracy as defined by your own Constitution.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Exactly. It's the definition of a democratic government. It's the definition of U.S. government. A dictionary defines the word "democracy". The Constitution defines the institution - i.e. the practice - of democracy.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
In the context of your original claim, it would make sense to compare the US government to itself. Is it becoming less democratic or more?
Democracy can take many forms; where in that mix the U.S. falls in practice varies over time and under different interpretations (those by judges, for example).
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
You might want to think before you express an opinion. (Some hints: votes for women, desegregation....)
ringo writes:
In my opinion? Is it becoming less democratic or more?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
The ability of the government to work in the interest of the people has no necessary relationship with democracy.
My opinion is that the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time, even if we've been including more and more folks in our definition of 'people'.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
You said, "... the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time..." and, "Equal treatment under the law has no necessary relationship with democracy." Huh?I'm saying that the ability of the government to work in the interest of the people has no necessary relationship with democracy either - so your point about equal treatment is moot. By analogy, you're saying that dogs are smarter than cats because they have four legs; I'm pointing out that cats also have four legs.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Or... we could ask ourselves if our translation is accurate. Do "we" - meaning you - really know what the people's interests are? Maybe the people do know what their interests are and you're the one who doesn't.
When the decisions they make no longer translate into a service of their interests, we must ask whether they are really the ones making the decisions... Jon writes:
If there is a systemic malfunction, it's that the American people have abandoned much of their role in democracy, trusting their interests to capitalism: "What's good for business is good for me." That isn't democracy breaking down; it's just failure to use democracy.
... whether there is systemic malfunction preventing their decisions translating into a service of their interests....
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
MrHambre writes:
Again I would say that nothing was "taken"; rather it was freely given. Maybe it can be taken back, maybe not. I just think it's premature to call a setback a "death knell".
But to be fair, the Occupy movement did try to raise awareness of how the neoliberal scheme has gradually taken democracy out of the hands of the populace and made the government an ATM for high finance wheeler-dealers.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
The folks of Denton, Texas elected their local government as well as their state government and their federal government. What you have is a conflict of interest between different democratic institutions, not a breakdown in democracy.
"We" meaning the folks of Denton, Texas.
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