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Author Topic:   Corporate Interests & Democracy's Death Knell
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 7 of 51 (758606)
05-29-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-28-2015 6:41 PM


Jon writes:
I think it can be argued, convincingly, that both of these steps, and many others lately taken to advance corporate interests, are direct violations of the Constitutional rights of U.S. citizens and in opposition to our country's founding principles respecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Is the WTO subject to the US Constitution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 05-28-2015 6:41 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 05-29-2015 1:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 18 of 51 (758663)
05-30-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
05-29-2015 1:50 PM


Jon writes:
However, since it's caused so much controversy I'm comfortable setting aside the WTO/USDA issue and focusing on state governments banning local democracy.
Do you have thoughts on that?
My thought is that it sounds like a Gish Gallop: "Never mind the first stupid thing I said; let's focus on the second."
Pulling out of international organizations that occasionally disagree with you is stupid. And nobody is "banning local government".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 05-29-2015 1:50 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 12:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 21 of 51 (758670)
05-30-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Jon
05-30-2015 12:18 PM


Jon writes:
If you want to take the win, it's all yours.
It's not a win until you admit the stupidity of the second thing you said, that local democracy is being banned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 12:18 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 12:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 51 (758672)
05-30-2015 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jon
05-30-2015 12:51 PM


Jon writes:
That relates to Texas' ban on banning fracking, not the WTO/USDA issue.
Yes, you're equally wrong about both.
I might not agree with Texas' banning banning but it isn't democracy that they're banning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 12:51 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 1:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 25 of 51 (758674)
05-30-2015 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
05-30-2015 1:19 PM


Jon writes:
What else do you call it when people's right to self-governance is limited by how well their decisions conform to the desires of industry?
I call it the state level of democracy taking precedence over the local level of democracy. The state's decision is a democratic one regardless of any influence exerted by industry.
Jon writes:
Or is democracy still alive and well so long as the city council can decide what day the hog judging will be?
If the state decides democratically that that's what local democracy should be, then yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 1:19 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 1:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 30 of 51 (758750)
06-01-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
05-30-2015 1:51 PM


Jon writes:
In other words, democracy by definition and definition only.
It's democracy as defined by your own Constitution. I think that's better than defining undemocratic as anything you disagree with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 05-30-2015 1:51 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 06-01-2015 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 51 (758753)
06-01-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
06-01-2015 12:39 PM


Jon writes:
ringo writes:
It's democracy as defined by your own Constitution.
I wasn't aware that the U.S. Constitution was a dictionary.
Then you need to broaden your awareness. The US Constitution is, by definition , the definition of US democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 06-01-2015 12:39 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 06-01-2015 1:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 51 (758782)
06-02-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
06-01-2015 1:39 PM


Jon writes:
It's the definition of U.S. government.
Exactly. It's the definition of a democratic government.
A dictionary defines the word "democracy". The Constitution defines the institution - i.e. the practice - of democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 06-01-2015 1:39 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jon, posted 06-02-2015 2:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 51 (758817)
06-03-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jon
06-02-2015 2:40 PM


Jon writes:
Democracy can take many forms; where in that mix the U.S. falls in practice varies over time and under different interpretations (those by judges, for example).
In the context of your original claim, it would make sense to compare the US government to itself. Is it becoming less democratic or more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Jon, posted 06-02-2015 2:40 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 4:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 51 (758822)
06-03-2015 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jon
06-03-2015 4:33 PM


Jon writes:
ringo writes:
Is it becoming less democratic or more?
In my opinion?
You might want to think before you express an opinion. (Some hints: votes for women, desegregation....)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 4:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 5:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 51 (758860)
06-04-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
06-03-2015 5:42 PM


Jon writes:
My opinion is that the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time, even if we've been including more and more folks in our definition of 'people'.
The ability of the government to work in the interest of the people has no necessary relationship with democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 5:42 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Jon, posted 06-04-2015 8:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 51 (758898)
06-05-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Jon
06-04-2015 8:07 PM


Jon writes:
Huh?
You said, "... the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time..." and, "Equal treatment under the law has no necessary relationship with democracy."
I'm saying that the ability of the government to work in the interest of the people has no necessary relationship with democracy either - so your point about equal treatment is moot.
By analogy, you're saying that dogs are smarter than cats because they have four legs; I'm pointing out that cats also have four legs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Jon, posted 06-04-2015 8:07 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 06-05-2015 3:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 51 (758956)
06-06-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Jon
06-05-2015 3:00 PM


Jon writes:
When the decisions they make no longer translate into a service of their interests, we must ask whether they are really the ones making the decisions...
Or... we could ask ourselves if our translation is accurate. Do "we" - meaning you - really know what the people's interests are? Maybe the people do know what their interests are and you're the one who doesn't.
Jon writes:
... whether there is systemic malfunction preventing their decisions translating into a service of their interests....
If there is a systemic malfunction, it's that the American people have abandoned much of their role in democracy, trusting their interests to capitalism: "What's good for business is good for me." That isn't democracy breaking down; it's just failure to use democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 06-05-2015 3:00 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by MrHambre, posted 06-06-2015 1:21 PM ringo has replied
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 06-06-2015 9:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 51 (758960)
06-06-2015 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by MrHambre
06-06-2015 1:21 PM


MrHambre writes:
But to be fair, the Occupy movement did try to raise awareness of how the neoliberal scheme has gradually taken democracy out of the hands of the populace and made the government an ATM for high finance wheeler-dealers.
Again I would say that nothing was "taken"; rather it was freely given. Maybe it can be taken back, maybe not. I just think it's premature to call a setback a "death knell".

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 Message 46 by MrHambre, posted 06-06-2015 1:21 PM MrHambre has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 51 (759000)
06-07-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jon
06-06-2015 9:32 PM


Jon writes:
"We" meaning the folks of Denton, Texas.
The folks of Denton, Texas elected their local government as well as their state government and their federal government. What you have is a conflict of interest between different democratic institutions, not a breakdown in democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 06-06-2015 9:32 PM Jon has not replied

  
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