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Author | Topic: Does Atheism = No beliefs? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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AZPaul writes: That does not preclude you from also being agnostic, from the Greek agnost or agnotos - not knowing or incapable of being known. We've done this to death in another thread so I'll just say this: agnostic is an anachronism that has had no sensible meaning since the enlightenment. We now accept that no-one actually knows whether there's a god or not. RAZD calls himself a deist and an agnostic, ringo says there's no god but isn't an atheist he's agnostic. I say I'm an atheist but I know that the non-existence of god can't be proven so I too am an agnostic. Agnosticism is defunct as a concept. Ringo and I are atheists and RAZD believes in god/s I'll say no more. Probably.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 996 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
We now accept that no-one actually knows whether there's a god or not. RAZD calls himself a deist and an agnostic, ringo says there's no god but isn't an atheist he's agnostic. I say I'm an atheist but I know that the non-existence of god can't be proven so I too am an agnostic. And this correlates with my previous post regarding the distinction between belief and knowledge. So if we want to effectively categorize, it would look something like this: Faith: Gnostic TheistRAZD: Agnostic Theist/Deist Ringo: Agnostic Atheist Tangle: Agnostic Atheist Diomedes: Agnostic Atheist In my dealings with Theists and Creationists, I often have been labeled a Darwinist as well. I've had discussions to itemize how theism/atheism classifications work, but in the end, I often just tell them I am a 'realist'. Some take offense to that saying I am being condescending. But in the end, what it means to me is that my viewpoints of the world are dictated by natural and physical laws and the data derived from effective experimentation. Anything that cross into areas like 'metaphysics' or 'pseudoscience' have no veracity in my worldview since they do not adhere to the scientific method.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Except that Faith is also agnostic, she believes that god exists, she even thinks that she knows: but she can't know, she can only believe.
If agnostic is on both sides of the equation, we can cancel it out - we don't need the concept - if both atheists and deists can claim to be one it's only use is to conflate and confuse.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
ringo writes:
I personally don't believe that any gods exist but I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as an agnostic. I have no active unbelief. People who do self-identify as atheists may or may not be "sure". There's little to be gained by labelling people one way or the other. This seems to be consistent with the normal usage of the terms "agnostic" and "atheist". An "agnostic" takes the essentially neutral position that he's not sure whether or not any god exists. A true agnostic could make the truth-claim: "I'm not sure whether or not any god exists", but he could not force this truth-claim on others. If his position is truly neutral, it should not bother him if others take the theist or atheist positions (claiming that a god DOES or does NOT exist). As normally used, the term "atheist" does NOT describe a neutral position. An atheist makes the truth-claim that "no god exists". (Whether he is certain of this or not, he believes it to be true.). And this position that "no god exists" has logical consequences; it means that those who DO believe in the existence of a god must be deluded, or ignorant, or evil. This is not a neutral position."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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An atheist makes the truth-claim that "no god exists". No, kbertsche. You attribute false claims to those you do not, you can not, know. Unacceptable. While the activist atheist, such as myself, will approach the "no god exists" idea, many do not and more do not care. The only commonality is that we do not follow a theistic path.
... it means that those who DO believe in the existence of a god must be deluded, or ignorant, or evil. Me, personally (and ,no, I do not speak for all), since you brought it up, I could go with that. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Except that Faith is also agnostic, she believes that god exists, she even thinks that she knows: but she can't know, she can only believe. Perhaps there is some sense in which your definitions make sense. The problem with them is that people the rest of us call atheists, Christians, and agnostics definitely have different mental states that they present in reaction to the question is God real. Adopting your definitions simply means that we no longer have words to describe those mental states. No thanks. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul writes:
Your claim disagrees not only with my own personal experience in talking with atheists, it disagrees with the definition of "atheism" per dictionary.com:
kbertsche writes:
No, kbertsche. You attribute false claims to those you do not, you can not, know. Unacceptable. While the activist atheist, such as myself, will approach the "no god exists" idea, many do not and more do not care. The only commonality is that we do not follow a theistic path. An atheist makes the truth-claim that "no god exists".quote:Note that the first definition agrees with me: atheism is the "belief that there is no God". The second definition is more neutral, and would be consistent with your claim above, that atheists simply "do not follow a theistic path". Except that this is not really your position, as you reveal:
AZPaul writes:
This is inconsistent with your claimed position above, of course. If you simply "do not follow a theistic path", or if you take a neutral position of "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings", it shouldn't matter to you if others DO choose to follow a theistic path or DO believe in the existence of a supreme being. The fact that you have a negative view of theists suggests that you truly believe that there is no god. kbertsche writes:
Me, personally (and ,no, I do not speak for all), since you brought it up, I could go with that.
... it means that those who DO believe in the existence of a god must be deluded, or ignorant, or evil."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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For the life of me I don't understand why this endless argument goes on and on.
And why believers feel they must try and fit those who don't believe into their predefined niches. In my mind, there is a distinct difference between "I do not believe in a god or gods" and "I believe god or gods do not exist." I am an atheist and I do not believe in a god or gods or anything supernatural.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Tanypteryx writes:
Agreed; there is a distinct difference between these two positions. But how realistic is it to hold the first position without also holding the second? How common is this among atheists? In my mind, there is a distinct difference between "I do not believe in a god or gods" and "I believe god or gods do not exist." I am an atheist and I do not believe in a god or gods or anything supernatural. For example, I can say that "I do not believe in the tooth fairy." But my belief goes further; I am also convinced that the tooth fairy does not exist. It would be nearly impossible for me "not to believe in the tooth fairy" without also "believing that the tooth fairy does not exist." What about the atheists here? Can you honestly say that you "do not believe in a god or gods" without also taking the position that you "believe god or gods do not exist"?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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The evidence indicates that the supernatural does not, and further, cannot, exist in this universe. That is not the same as the "truth-claim" (no god exists) you keep insisting all atheists must believe. One is tentative. The other is absolute. I understand the theist mindset has difficulty with the nuance of these statements even when explained to them by atheists. I cannot help you further.
The only "truth-claim" most atheists make, regardless of what you want to hear or think you hear or what some dictionary with definitions woefully inadequate for the reality say, is this: Whether some god or gods exist or not they do not affect my existence and I follow no theist path. Note the "most atheists" in that sentence. I am not like most atheists. I am actively anti-theist. So, don't try to point up some self-conjured inconsistencies between what I said about most atheists and what I know about myself. And, if it isn't too far a stretch for you, I can still claim that theists must be deluded, or ignorant, or evil, while maintaining that god(s) existence or not matters not one bit to me. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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The evidence indicates that the supernatural does not, and further, cannot, exist in this universe. How silly. What "evidence?" What evidence could there possibly be against nonphysical beings? Against a Universal Mind that permeates space but can't be detected by physical instruments of any sort? I believe there is plenty of evidence FOR such a Being and many lesser nonphysical or spiritual beings as well, but it's not the sort of evidence you have in mind. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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Many self-identified agnostics claim to take no position on whether God exists. Therefore it seems perfectly possible to not believe that God exists without believing that God does not exist.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Paul writes: Therefore it seems perfectly possible to not believe that God exists without believing that God does not exist. You see the mess this kind of word acrobatics get you into? If you don't believe in god, youre a friggin' atheist! End.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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I'm not engaging in any word acrobatics which is why I'm not in a mess. In fact I carefully avoided it.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
That's pretty much my position. It's obviously impossible to prove the non-existence of something that doesn't exist, rather we can say whether something is more or less improbable. The contention rather is in disproving specific aspects of a theology that either cannot be true when juxtaposed by known facts or is internally inconsistent. But to say whether or not "God" exists leaves so much to be desired since it's really a vague and unspecified thing. Ask 100 people what God is and get 100 different answers. So it's just easier to take an agnostic position -- neither in the business of proving or disproving the existence of something that cannot be determined in either direction just by the nature of itself.
"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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