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Author | Topic: Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: It (Job) mentioned a preexisting dragon (that was pierced) as probably the material to adorn the heavens. It was pierced at the same time as the heavens were made. If it (Job or wherever in the scripture) said that Set was the material for the universe, then that would be another thing. The devil is in the details.
quote: Job 26:7? It is a adorning of the universe with the earth, right? 26:7-13 do seem related to the creation of Genesis, in a slightly different tradition (textual or otherwise). Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Even if true they are still simply irrelevant and just another cause to miss the whole point of Job. And again even what you post does not support a primal serpent. There are actual serpents you know and they are far more common than any primal serpent.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
A serpent.
There is no dragon in Job. And you continue to simply quote mine, to take small sections out of context. I agree that is also what fundamentalists and so called "Biblical Christians" do but it is as pitiful and silly when you do it as when they do it.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Even fundamentalist scholars disagree with you. I'll quote it again.
quote: You are hardly standing on strong ground in your statements. And, since you ignored the documentation the first time, I'll remind you that it is parallel to "the deep" from the first verses of the Bible.
quote: post 33 of jar says:
quote: I am assuming that a primeval serpent mentioned as a parallel on par with the adorning/making of the heavens (as the NRSV and NKJV have it) would be a very large serpent (otherwise known as a dragon) at that. You first accused me of quote mining because I failed, in my various posts, to quote from the couple of several hundred year old Bible translations you dug up. (granted you also were upset that I had the audacity to not ignore just a few verses - 26:12-13 - in Job. The fact that I acknowledge the relevance of Job 26:12-13 seems to have you questioning my approach) Here is jar's post 20.
quote: He then went on to quote the c.1890 ASV (which the c. 1950 RSV was the direct successor and the 1990 NRSV was the successor to both), the 1611 King James, and the 200-300 year old Douay-Rheims to prove that I was quote mining. I either pay too much attention to the text of Job or I "cherry pick" the translation because I ignore the ASV and instead quote from it's grandson successor the NRSV. And I quoted the NEW King James Version of the last half-century too btw. I admit that I don't know what the actual successor of the Douay-Rheims is. Why do we have to use translations that almost date back to the middle ages anyway?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Sorry for having to quote it again, but jar seems to just want to make pronouncements - based on little more than the weight of his own authority -, and ignore every last bit of academic documentation I present from the qualified sources.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry for having to quote it again, but jar seems to just want to make pronouncements - based on little more than the weight of his own authority -, and ignore every last bit of academic documentation I present from the qualified sources. Yes I disagree with what you and the scholars you quote say, not based on my own authority but rather on what is actually written and the fact that I see quote mining and taking pieces parts out of context as dishonest, irrelevant and a total waste of time meant only to obscure and pervert the Bible stories real purpose.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Here is the NKJV again.
quote: "he breaks up Rahab, by his spirit he adorned the heavens (stars surely referenced), his hand pierced the fleeing serpent"
quote: I'm glad you feel there was some grand purpose in the book of Job, but your "big picture" obsession hardly means that the actual lines of the text should be ignored. You have some strange definitions for terms like "out of context" and "quote mining".
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
quote:Don't over-think it.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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It (Job) mentioned a preexisting dragon (that was pierced) as probably the material to adorn the heavens. It was pierced at the same time as the heavens were made. "Probably the material to adorn the heavens". Probably based on what reasoning or calculation? And where does the text say that the dragon was pierced at the same time the heavens were made. Again, the verses in question describe God's might works, only some of which are creation related. Example:
quote: Not a creation event.
quote: Not a creation event but an ongoing state of affairs expressed in present tense.
quote: A creation event.
quote: Not a creation event. A statement of power based on God's current circumstance.
quote: Who knows when this happened. The seas grow rough even today at times.
quote: Not sure what to make of that... Garnished means something other than created although it may describe a happening during creation. Not sure about the rest of the verse. Some poetry may not be worth the time and trouble to unravel. The story of Job is about something else entirely. The verses given here are to allow us to appreciate God's power as expressed by Job in a way that his peers would understand.
It is a adorning of the universe with the earth, right? Adorning? Why do you call it that? I suppose anything God made could be considered an adorning.
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Because the making/adorning/furnishing of the heavens is placed right after Rahab is smote and right before the spearing of the serpent. Right smack in the middle is the making of the heavens. The relation is clear.
quote: Genesis 1 says God placed the stars in the firmament, so "placing" might be the standard. Your translation is old and/or bad. It looks like the KJV 1611. Here is the Yale Anchor Bible Dictionary scholarship.
quote: You quoted me asking."It is a adorning of the universe with the earth, right?" Then you said.
quote: I called it that because jar preferred the KJV translation as somehow authoritative. So I used the NKJV "adorning" instead of "made".
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I called it that because jar preferred the KJV translation as somehow authoritative. So I used the NKJV "adorning" instead of "made". You gotta stop misrepresenting the facts. jar did not ever say, hint, intimate or assert that he preferred the KJV or any particular translation, rather jar has said that quote mining, regardless of the version, translation or edition and trying to compare passages taken out of context and even from different stories is dishonest and no productive and just the typical con game for fundamentalists of any streak.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi LNA
LNA writes: Job 2612 By his power he stilled the Sea; by his understanding he struck down Rahab. Where do you get Rahab from? I am a fundamentalists and the first thing you have to do is know what the original text says to understand it. Or you have to use a good translation. What you are quoting is not a translation of רהב it is supposed to be a transliteration but they used the Masoretic text which has vowels and the original did not have vowels. A true transliteration would be Rhb. רהב means: 1.pride, blusterer. Most of the garbage you have written has absolutely nothing to do with your OP. You asked for a fundamentalist to explain Job 26:12-13. Job is answering Bildad the Shuhite in chapter 26 and asking him questions.
Job writes: 26:12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. He divideth the sea has reference to the single land mass that appeared in Genesis 1:9 when God gathered the water to one place. He divided that land mass in the days of Peleg.Which divided the one sea. Moses writes: 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. In the last half of the verse Job is deriding Bildad about his pride. In verse 13 the crooked ברח meaning 1.fleeing נחש serpent meaning 1.serpent, snake. I hope that explanation satisfies you and if it don't you are free to believe anything your mind can imagine it says. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just out of curiosity, do you believe in Zoroastrianism to any degree?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes: Not sure what to make of that... Garnished means something other than created although it may describe a happening during creation. The Hebrew word שפרה translated garnished means: 1. fairness, clearness. This took place when God cleared the heavens of the condition they are found in @ Genesis 1:2. There are only 3 creation events in the Bible Genesis 1:1, (heavens and earth) 1:21, (great fish or whatever you want to call it for Jonah's 3 days and 3 nights) and 1:27 (mankind, male and female). Any other events are just God doing work and making things to happen. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Then
quote: I prefer to let scripture define scripture. Take the "fleeing serpent" of Job 26:13 and the "he smiteth" Rahab of 26:12 "smiteth is Hebrew mchz. "fleeing serpent" is nchs brych. The so-called "formed" translation of the KJV is is chll. Here, in Psalms, the KJV translates chll as"wounded"
quote: But back to the use of nchs brych. Let scripture define scripture. Here is the NIV translation of Is. 27:1
quote: The "gliding serpent" is the exact same nchs brych of Job 26:13 so that is a clear parallel. The "coiling serpent" of Is. 27:1 is Hebrew nchs 'qlltn The "monster of the sea" is tnyn 'sr bym . Now 'as is therelative pronoun "who, which, that" ... "in Yam" or "in the sea" Now lets look at the Lotan parallel in Ugaritic text KTU 1.5 I 1-4.
quote: "you smite" is Ugaritic tmchz which is same root as mchz in Job 26:12 and KJV 'he smiteth". "twisting serpent" is Ugaritic btn 'qltn which is same as Hebrew text in Is 27:1 nchs 'qlltn (translated coiling serpent" in NIV) except for the doubled consonant in the Hebrew. Psalms 74:12 (or round about) has Leviathan with multiple heads. The scholars seem to be allowing the scripture to define the scripture, then comparing it to the Canaanite texts , which use nearly the same language, for further clarification to seal the deal.
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