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Author Topic:   Can fundamentalists explain Job 26:12-13 for me?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 114 (787188)
07-07-2016 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by LamarkNewAge
07-05-2016 3:35 PM


Re: Text of Job 26.
Just a couple of general comments or questions.
First, having a tie to some earlier story in Job does not have quite the same impact as having the same story found in Genesis. Job might be using any number of sources including astrology and myth in order to describe how great his God was. So how do you address the thought that maybe mapping some parts of the story to Genesis and then dragging in all of Job 26 to be a story of the origin of the universe may be an argument with some holes in it.
Secondly, not all of the examples in Job 26 seem to allude directly to creation. The intent is to describe awesomeness, but creation is just one such awesome thing. Things like binding water into clouds, covering the face of the moon, and stilling raging seas are things God does everyday and not just during 'Creation Week'. How do you sort out for sure when the serpent got speared?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-05-2016 3:35 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 11:15 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 114 (787229)
07-07-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by LamarkNewAge
07-07-2016 11:15 AM


Re: Text of Job 26.
Job isn't in the first pages of the Bible, that's for sure. Now Job might be using stories from diverse sources but he said that the hand of God pierced the primeval serpent
That would not seem to be much of a rebuttal. Job may have believed in a bunch of stuff that is not described in Genesis. If he said that God was greater than Set, would that, in your mind, elevate Set towards reality or to the same level as the Creation story as told in Genesis.
Fundamentalists use verse 7 to say that God placed a spherical earth into empty space.
Fundy's say a lot of cute stuff. They are just adorable. Yeah, verse 7 is clearly a description of a creation level event.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 11:15 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 10:03 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 39 of 114 (787272)
07-08-2016 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by LamarkNewAge
07-07-2016 10:03 PM


Re: Text of Job 26.
It (Job) mentioned a preexisting dragon (that was pierced) as probably the material to adorn the heavens. It was pierced at the same time as the heavens were made.
"Probably the material to adorn the heavens". Probably based on what reasoning or calculation?
And where does the text say that the dragon was pierced at the same time the heavens were made. Again, the verses in question describe God's might works, only some of which are creation related.
Example:
quote:
8: He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
Not a creation event.
quote:
9 He holds back the face of his throne and spreads his cloud upon it.
Not a creation event but an ongoing state of affairs expressed in present tense.
quote:
10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
A creation event.
quote:
11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
Not a creation event. A statement of power based on God's current circumstance.
quote:
12 By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he shattered Rahab.
Who knows when this happened. The seas grow rough even today at times.
quote:
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Not sure what to make of that... Garnished means something other than created although it may describe a happening during creation. Not sure about the rest of the verse. Some poetry may not be worth the time and trouble to unravel. The story of Job is about something else entirely. The verses given here are to allow us to appreciate God's power as expressed by Job in a way that his peers would understand.
It is a adorning of the universe with the earth, right?
Adorning? Why do you call it that? I suppose anything God made could be considered an adorning.
quote:
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-07-2016 10:03 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-08-2016 4:06 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 44 by ICANT, posted 07-09-2016 3:53 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 114 (787485)
07-15-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by LamarkNewAge
07-15-2016 12:16 PM


Re: Zoroastrianism is the reason the Ols Testament has ressurrection (albeit late).
Catholics have always been one of the conservative churches anyway.
With regard to understanding how fundamentalists view the Bible, Catholics are often not a great source. In particular, with regards to things involving a literal interpretation of evolution and the origin of the universe, Catholics are far more mainstream in their beliefs. Is that really a truth that you want to dispute? Catholics also differ from fundamentalists on small things related to salvation as well.
In fact, if you want to use Catholics as an example of how fundamentalists doctrine works, you've got a lot of ground work to lay. I doubt that it would even be worthwhile to do that work.
Whether or not Catholics are more politically liberal than fundamentalists is quite another question, but one that is not germane to this discussion. What is the case is that Catholics are not fundamentalists. There are parts of the Bible that the interpret far more literally than protestants and parts on which they are simply not literalists in any fashion. In fact Catholics have extra books in their Bible. Beyond that many fundamentalists rail against the Catholic Church, with some going so far as to consider the Pope the anti-Christ. Surely you know this already?
I was attacked by a fundamentalist earlier for using the NIV for Is. 27 and the Leviathan verse.
Duh!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-15-2016 12:16 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 114 (787486)
07-15-2016 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by kbertsche
07-15-2016 2:14 PM


Re: Zoroastrianism is the reason the Ols Testament has ressurrection (albeit late).
But for those who don't read Hebrew, the second best is to read the text in multiple translations. This is NOT for the purpose of "translation shopping" to pick the one that you like best; it is more for "translation averaging" and for getting an idea of the possible range of meanings of the original text.
I would do this for the purpose of debates like this one, but I would not recommend this as a general practice for Christians. Some translations are just wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by kbertsche, posted 07-15-2016 2:14 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
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