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Author Topic:   Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 175 of 427 (791213)
09-12-2016 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
09-12-2016 5:25 PM


You are simply taking for granted the OE explanation of the rocks and the time periods, begging the question being another word for it.
Actually, no. I'm trying to find an example of your straight, flat strata representing your unlivable environments. That seems to be more than you are wiling to attempt.
This has nothing to do with age of the rocks. I'm asking how those clams got into that unlivable environment.
But just looking at the rocks and the tracks and the other impressions all that can be seen of that "time period" is an extensive mud flat which allowed those impressions to be made, no "environment" other than that mud flat.
These are not 'mudflats', they are mudstones with the same kinds of features as modern marine environments.
That's my point. Those creatures you are describing never lived in that "environment" that belongs to that "time period," ...
Again, nothing to do with time periods. How did they get into this unlivable environment?
... they merely died as the sediment encroached on their former environment and buried it -- ...
Well, then they must have lived in that unlivable environment. How is that?
... although depending on what level of the strata we're talking about it would already have been covered by a series of mud flats anyway, their former habitat having long since been buried under the whole stack.
That doesn't answer my question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 5:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 7:57 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 178 of 427 (791217)
09-12-2016 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
09-12-2016 5:50 PM


Re: sharp contacts?
That may be quite wrong but I'm not sure. What I mean by tight contact is the contact between the surfaces of two strata, which can be seen as quite tight in some photos where the strata have not been tectonically deformed, as in this picture, but retain their horizontality.
So, a 'tight contact' is a contact that looks tight.
I'm glad we cleared that up.
This pictures looks like it could very well have exhibited tight straight contacts between those layers when they were still horizontal.
Yes, that's the point. The environment of deposition was changing, but it was taking some time.
Even now the contacts look pretty straight although any former tightness has been disturbed by the shifting of the rocks in relation to each other.
Actually, what it's showing is interbeds of mudstone with limestone.

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 Message 172 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 5:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 183 of 427 (791225)
09-13-2016 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
09-12-2016 7:57 PM


Every single rock in the strata is such an example and I would think I've been more than clear about that. Every rock that has tracks and burrows and raindrops and other impressions in it is what I've been talking about. Every single rock layer that covers a vast expanse, and most do, represents a former vast wet sedimentary expanse, which is not a livable environment.
So, the fossils were transported from some older time or environment, but the tracks were made during during low tide periods.
So, why were inoceramid clams all transported to Cretaceous sediments and nowhere else? How were they transported?
And where did they go in the meantime?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 7:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 7:22 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 204 of 427 (791265)
09-13-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Faith
09-13-2016 9:51 AM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
Dating can't disprove anything if there is incontrovertible evidence that what it purports to date couldn't possibly have existed.
But there is no such evidence and you have provided none. On the other hand, we have presented numerous lines of evidence for old ages in the geological record. What is the disinterested observer supposed to think? "I'm going to go with Faith because she has no evidence"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 9:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 2:55 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(4)
Message 209 of 427 (791270)
09-13-2016 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Faith
09-13-2016 7:22 AM


There is no older time or environment in the Flood scenario.
Well, there had to be at least one, right? So tell us about it.
Or dinosaurs to Mesozoic sediments and so on. I really wish I knew.
So, it doesn't bother you that your scenario is completely inept at explaining something as important as the fossil record?
You can just blissfully ignore this failure?
But meanwhile I can content myself with showing how the distribution of ammonites and trilobites in a stratigraphic column doesn't support evolution, ...
How is that? Are you assuming some kind of rate for evolution?
... and how tracks and burrows and raindrop impressions on the surface of flat barren featureless extensive strata only serve to show that the OE environment interpretation is nonsense.
Please explain your logic here. Why do creatures burrow into an unlivable environment? How do raindrop impressions survive tidal surges? How do trackways not show animals living at all times during the flood (the entire geological record)?
What is the evidence for your tides?
It would certainly be nice to know why fossils are sorted as they are but there's enough evidence against OE in general to shelve that question for a while.
I would say that it's imperative to know.
How were they transported?
By water most likely.
Really? I suppose you have some evidence for this, right?
So, then, explain how huge clams were transported by water in a calm, low-flow regime environment for hundreds of miles (remember, these are huge sedimentary sheets). There should be some kind of evidence that they were transported.
Please provide such evidence.
Sigh. There was no "meantime." They got carried to wherever the water dumped them along with its current sediment load, and were buried in the sediment.
So, where did they come from?
A source of clam shells, or some kind of trail, would be nice evidence for transport.
Where is it?
I had been reading about a couple of slabs of dried mud that came recently from the Bay of Fundy with bird tracks and raindrops nicely preserved in them.
They were preserved in the fossil record? Please document this.
Since the rocks generally extend quite a distance horizontally in their barren featureless rockishness, this is evidence that there were no livable landscapes represented by any of the strata, there was nothing but rock that was of course originally wet sediment.
It is also evidence that there was no transport of the fossils.
And the tracks out in the unlivable landscape, hundreds of miles from anything 'livable'? Wow ...
they must have been olympic creatures to get that far from home.
The separated environments are assumed to have been livable environments, ..
So, how would a livable environment look different?
... but the tracks and burrows and raindrops are all made in flat featureless sediment/rock, not in any livable environment.
How about dinosaur nests with eggs intact? What about termite mounds? How did all of those come about?
So you've got dinosaurs and trilobites and giraffes running out onto tidal flats from the base of the flood sequence to the very end. So, when was the earth completely flooded?
Don't you see all of this as kind of silly? Perhaps wishful?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 7:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 4:14 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 210 of 427 (791271)
09-13-2016 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
09-13-2016 3:12 PM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
Except in the case of tracks found on the surface of rocks in the strata, and I think there are quite a few of them, it is quite obvious that the animals couldn't possibly actually live there because for miles and miles in all directions it would have been nothing but wet sediment, sediment covering other layers of sediment, all covering whatever livable landscape might have originally been there.
So, trilobites roamed out hundreds of miles from their habitat, into the deadly environment, left some tracks and then went back home?
This is all evidenced by the strata themselves, those stacks of thick barren featureless flat lithified sedimentary slabs extending for miles and miles and miles that buried just about all the livable environments on the planet.
Well, evidently not since dinosaurs were roaming around this unlivable area toward the end of the flood.
So, where did the tides stop and the flood become complete?
ABE:
My explanatory ability has been improving, though, and one thing I'm getting good at is showing how the standard explanations are totally bogus.
Well, you are definitely proving that something is bogus.
Your arguments consist of flat-out denial and wishful story-telling.
You have not provided an nanogram of evidence.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 3:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 9:50 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 211 of 427 (791272)
09-13-2016 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
09-13-2016 2:55 PM


Re: The utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes in ROCKS:
Gee I really like my evidence of the ammonites and the tracks in the rocks.
I must have missed them.
Why can't tracks just be normal tracks? Why should evolution occur at your preferred pace?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 2:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 219 of 427 (791284)
09-13-2016 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Faith
09-13-2016 4:14 PM


Well the world was once a single continent well covered with plants because of its very pleasant climate, also an abundance of animal life, along with a lot of sinful human beings.
And where is this represented in the geological record?
I presume you have evidence that humans were present on that landscape?
It started raining when Noah was 600 years old, and it rained for forty days and forty nights all over the entire earth, causing local floods and mudslides and increasing the level of the oceans until everything was drowned. Eventually the water all drained away and the only living human beings left were Noah and his family, along with the animals on the ark and some that survived on their own in the oceans and wherever. Everything on land would certainly have been covered in mud, but it turns out that it was covered in huge layers of different kinds of mud that had buried everything that had lived on the land. Shall I go on?
That's a nice story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 4:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 10:45 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 243 of 427 (791323)
09-14-2016 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
09-14-2016 10:45 AM


Well the world was once a single continent well covered with plants because of its very pleasant climate, also an abundance of animal life, along with a lot of sinful human beings.
And where is this represented in the geological record?
Geology recognizes the "Supercontinent" Pangaea.
And geology recognizes humans in Pangaea?
Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate?
Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings?
So, where did you study geology?
You do realize that the Pangea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 10:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 12:20 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 252 of 427 (791340)
09-14-2016 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
09-14-2016 12:20 PM


And geology recognizes humans in Pangaea?
It should I'm sure. But since there are strata on Pangaea clearly the Flood wiped them all out.
Ah...
So you can't document humans living on Pangaea.
It's not even an interpretation, it's a wish, right?
Also, I've made the point before that the upturned strata of England, so nicely arranged as a unit, are proof that the continents didn't split in the middle of the building of the Geo Column as conventional dating says, which would have disturbed the column in the middle, which obviously didn't happen, but afterward, and that the tectonic disturbance that would have occurred at the time of the split is the reason for the uptilted strata.
Yes, they are nicely layered and arranged because there was little tectonic disturbance there. It's kind of like living in Iowa during the early Paleozoic and saying, "Appalachian Mountains? What Appalachian Mountans?"
Just another small point against the Geo Timescale.
If it were true, yes.
Geology recognizes a (single?) pleasant climate?
Of course not. You march to a uniformitarian drummer which throws off all your interpretations of the past.
So, you cannot document that part of your statement, either.
Geology recognizes the sinful nature of human beings?
Of course not. That might raise questions all by itself as to the reliability of geological judgments.
Ah, I see. So this had nothing to do with the question. Why did you bring it up then?
You are not getting the point. I asked you to document the things you were saying but you can't seem to give us any more than "Pangaea existed".
I hardly call that pertinent evidence supporting your story.
So, where did you study geology?
At EvC and Wikipedia and various online geology sources as well as a few books on the subject over the last fifteen or so years. Had the very best of teachers, including yourself.
That's what I thought. You have no training and certainly no experience in the field. Your understanding is based on myth.
You do realize that the Pangaea that geology recognizes is one of those buried landscapes, including abundant plant and animal life, don't you?
In that case we have at least partial corroboration of what I'm saying, yes?
Not since it records a landscape in the middle of your biblical flood, along with the fact that there were previous supercontinents as well.
Are you just cherry-picking continents now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 12:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 2:53 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 256 of 427 (791345)
09-14-2016 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
09-14-2016 2:39 PM


Re: Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
KB, that's all very interesting, but as with all OEC interpretations it's a lot of adjustment to worldly assumptions.
So, does that mean the supernatural assumptions are okay?
Or do you just reject all assumptions? Do you not make them in your own life?
Even if I can sympathize with the Christian OECs to some extent in their reasons for making such an adjustment, I'm not going to consider rewriting Christian theological history because of it, involving all that reinterpretation of what the Hebrew terms mean.
Don't you mean your interpretation of theological history?
The Bible may be hard to interpret in some places but it is NOT imprecise and its interpreters going back to earliest times are NOT id*iots. The whole world has always been understood to have been entirely covered by the Flood. Reducing it to a "region" is just a sort of mealymouthed accommodation to things we are unable to understand.
Don't you mean it's an accommodation that you don't understand because of your interpretation of the Bible?
I'm sure Morton is completely sincere and has excellent reasons for what he thinks, but he must certainly be wrong. I'd much rather take Kurt Wise's position that all the evidence is against YEC but I'm still going to be a YEC.
Well, yes, he could be wrong if your interpretation were correct (as you assume). But his interpretation might be better than your interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 3:01 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 260 of 427 (791350)
09-14-2016 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
09-14-2016 3:01 PM


Re: Continuing with OEC arguments: Flood was not Global
My "interpretation" of the Bible is the mainstream traidtional interpretation held by the majority of Christians forever who have all said the Flood covered the entire Earth. It is Morton and Bertsche's and other OEC's view that are the revisionist views. And you who don't believe a word of it have no right to reduce my view of the Bible to an idiosyncratic interpretation. NO, my view is the traditional historically accepted view.
Ah ...
So now, traditional is "correct". What a wonderful world we live in!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 3:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 277 of 427 (791385)
09-14-2016 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Faith
09-14-2016 9:02 PM


Re: Continuing with OEC Arguments: Fossil sorting
All I said was that location seems the likely explanation but that I wasn't going to argue it.
If it is so likely, then maybe you could tell us where the mammal habitat location in the Cambrian was.
No argument, just a request for information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 9:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 9:16 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 280 of 427 (791389)
09-14-2016 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Faith
09-14-2016 9:12 PM


Re: Maybe asking five whole questions was too much
Meanwhile I've made some really good arguments here that are simple but crucial support for the Flood, that nobody seems able to grasp.
That would indicate to me that maybe they aren't all that good.
Or are you trying to convince yourself?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 9:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 281 of 427 (791390)
09-14-2016 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
09-14-2016 9:16 PM


Re: Continuing with OEC Arguments: Fossil sorting
There was no Cambrian, there is only a rock low in the strata that you call the Cambrian.
Okay, then, show us where the mammal habitat was during deposition of the rocks that we call Cambrian.
It is only a rock, a very extensive rock that nothing could live on ...
Actually, it was sediment, and as we have shown creatures did live on it.
... even when it was an extensive expanse of sediment. There was never anything there but the sediment and whatever got trapped and died in it.
Or creatures that live there.
So, you admit that there were creatures living elsewhere when 'Cambrian' sediments were being deposited. Then where were the mammals?
It is one of a stack of sediments that buried whatever landscapes existed before the Flood. Mammals got buried in layers much higher up.
Why is that? I thought you said they were running out on to the mudflats during low tide. So, where are the giraffe tracks?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 9:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 09-14-2016 9:38 PM edge has replied

  
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