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Author Topic:   Methodological Naturalism
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 154 of 181 (79866)
01-21-2004 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Loudmouth
01-21-2004 4:48 PM


quote:
Means and statistics are only accurate when the mechanisms of action are better ellucidated. Correlation alone does not always suffice. H-D is a great option when opening up a new area of research, but eventually H-D must actually point to a natural mechanism which then can be falsified or supported through MN.
Woohoo! I couldn't have said it better, though I have been trying to for the last couple of days.
I hope Steve reads your post and is convinced. I will certain be lifting it for my own use in future replies.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Loudmouth, posted 01-21-2004 4:48 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-22-2004 12:25 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 162 of 181 (80082)
01-22-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-22-2004 12:25 PM


quote:
The history of a new discovery goes like this: First critics say, "you are crazy!", (forgot second step; something like, "Your evidence for that is inadequate."), then finally, "We knew that all along."
The history of a failed discovery is at first people claim "you are crazy", then finally "we told you you were wrong all along."
Do not delude yourself into thinking that just because you have an unpopular theory you must have the right one.
quote:
Philosophy of science is the discipline...
Which I have spent the most time of my life researching professionally and for fun. So now I have to listen to you tell me what you learned 30+ years ago and swallow it hook line and sinker? Sorry Steve.
I am unsure where you were taught, but even 35 years ago they were teaching basics of research methods which we use today in science classes. If your professors of science were saying something else, then you did not get your money's worth.
If you did not change your mind after getting out of class then perhaps you are not reading the right material.
However, one must question this claim on your part since you are decrying modern scientific methods. This must mean that you have seen your original PoS professors were downright wrong if they were teaching anything other than MN. For all this research you are decrying is at least as old as that.
quote:
I personally tested that conclusion, and found it correct.
You cannot test a method against itself. You must test it over time against other methods. Given the MN has replaced the tenets of your H-D methodology centuries ago, one has to question why you found yours "correct".
quote:
I still find the "people are naturally inclined to delude themselves, unlike other living species." idea more complex than the, "mad behavior in living beings is normally caused by malignant parasites." idea.
This is contrary to reason. Your explanations are circular, even if you bring in dark matter or energy. I mean is this dark matter calculated to be in people? No. Does it have any contact with people? No. Does it have some theoretical connection to the behavior or thoughts by people (other than the physicists who postulate it based on calculations and expectations)? No.
Other than suddenly asserting here is something we do not understand and therefore it must explain what I need explaining wayyyyyyyyyy ovvvvverrrrr heeeeeeeere, it makes no sense at all.
quote:
Cargo cults cannot have improved fitness, and turning a mirage into an oasis also would be unlikely to improve fitness. So, that some religious activities do improve fitness is not explained that way. It is simpler, I think, to suppose that the cargo cult people were demonized, and deceived. Only my opinion, of course.
You have not shown that any other religions do provide fitness, much less what the proper mechanism is for that fitness. I should also note that the cargo cults did stay alive so how do you know they didn't live better than they used to after creating their religion?
You are ignoring the obvious and in order to come to your opinion. And what's more you are avoiding the question... what does Occam's razor say about this?
We can see that people made a religion regarding (ascribed extra characteristics to) something they did not understand. We know children do this same sort of thing all of the time until they are taught how to ask questions and understand the world around them.
We know that Xian scientists claim that prayer gets them along just as well as medicine... but it does not.
The simplest mechanism for this behavior is the anthropological one. Creating a class of entities with all sorts of diverse characteristics and powers (particularly when they have to take on ad hoc characteristics) is not in keeping with Occam's razor.
You can state it is your opinion that you are right about demons all you want. You can even claim that the unpopularity of your position makes you believe that you are probably right. But you CANNOT claim that Occam's razor will support you in this endeavor. To do so involves completely circular reasoning.
If we can agree on this, then we are getting somewhere.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-22-2004 12:25 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-24-2004 11:11 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 169 of 181 (80489)
01-24-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-24-2004 11:11 AM


quote:
do you understand, even, H-D science? How about the English language? I have said, several times, that H-D science is a subset of MN, and yet you continue to see the two in conflict. I don't get it.
I'm glad you admit it is you that does not understand.
I have not said that these methods are in conflict. I am saying that... and have said so repeatedly... that H-D is insufficient, or inefficient, compared with MN.
H-D may be an okay way to scout possible areas of research. But at the end of the day, before claims to knowledge about a theory are made, the research must be conducted according to MN protocols.
If you agree that MN is the stricter protocol, then you have no reason to complain if it is the FINAL method of assessment.
quote:
Mad dogs and mad humans are infected. That invents nothing.
You are correct, as long as humans are infected by physical parasites. But you not only have invented the idea that all people who are mistaken, are instead infected, you have also invented some nonmaterial parasite (to explain the lack of material evidence for your claim) called "demons".
quote:
I find the subjective pressure to pretend that we are the highest, most intelligent, most powerful living beings on the earth, coupled with the clear fact that every other species has to live otherwise
I was never under the pretense that we are the most intelligent, powerful beings on the earth. I said people, just like any other animal, are limited and so can make mistakes. You are the one that seems to feel we are so powerful that the only explanation for error, is even more powerful entities... demons.
But oh it's not even that simple... You then move into ad hoc explanations that when people think as you like they are counseled by powerful entities called angels or Gods, but when they don't think as you do then they are possessed by demons.
You have given no consistent way to test which way around any particular thought can be considered counseled by angel or demon. Nor have you done anything but assert some connection from demons to dark matter/energy.
quote:
for your persistent reluctance to look squarely at the data, and do experiments yourself.
Uh, I do and I did. You have asserted that since the evidence did not turn out as you like, I must have done it wrong. You have also denied clear data which contradicts your occam's razor assertion.
If you have something more than assertion, made to support your initial theory, I would love to see it. Specifically with regard to the aztecs and cargo cults. They were simply mistaken. It's just that easy.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-24-2004 11:11 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-24-2004 7:14 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 171 of 181 (80635)
01-25-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-24-2004 7:14 PM


quote:
But, help me out, slowly here. State a foundational protocol for MN. How does an MN scientific endeavor begin, in your understanding of the term. Or, if you like, give me a good reference to it. I'm obviously under-informed.
I answered this in another thread, but I will repeat it here (not sure which you'll get to first). Actually I wish I had seen this one first because your comments here had my jaw hit the floor.
If you are a degreed scientist, and a student of philosophy of science, and had numerous scientific articles published, why on earth do you need a reference as to how to conduct scientific research?
This seems bizarre to me, and kind of needless since I have given examples of how to tighten some of the studies you talked about, and there are discussions on MN on this site. Do you really need my help in this?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-24-2004 7:14 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 1:45 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 173 of 181 (81213)
01-27-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 1:45 PM


quote:
But, are in denial about your ignorance, playing some sort of game here. You won't describe what you mean by MN because you don't mean anything.
You have got to be kidding me. For a guy that said he just realized what MN is and what it's relation is to H-D (after reading a post by MrH which happens to reflect my own position), how on earth can you make the above statement?
If it makes you feel better to think of me as some uneducated clout, making things up as I go along, you go right ahead... hypocrite.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 1:45 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
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