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Author | Topic: Can the creationist model explain the data? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
herebedragons Member (Idle past 886 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
Excellent. I really like the percent similarity matrix, I don't really have a good tool to do that; PAUP maybe, but I haven't tried it specifically.
The phylogenetic section doesn't allow you to root the tree, so it produces a weird result. But other than that, it looks like a really good resource. I will bookmark it. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 886 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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Just bumping this up so it doesn't fall off the edge of the earth.
My apologies, I haven't meant to abandon this thread, but have experienced some personal issues lately that have taken up all my free time. I have been working on a reply and will post when I can. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible. |
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CRR Member (Idle past 2271 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
quote: quote:
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CRR Member (Idle past 2271 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Oh FFS give us a decent reference; not a Google search.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
CRR writes: Oh FFS give us a decent reference; not a Google search. Pot, let me introduce you to kettle.
CRR writes: quote:Textbooks often claim common descent is supported using the example of a tree of animals based upon the enzyme cytochrome c which matches the traditional evolutionary tree based upon morphology. However, textbooks rarely mention that the tree based upon a different enzyme, cytochrome b, sharply conflicts with the standard evolutionary tree. Problem 6: Molecular Biology Has Failed to Yield a Grand “Tree of Life” | Evolution News quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oh FFS give us a decent reference; not a Google search. What I said was:
(Faith): Collect a bunch of small creatures, small enough to let multiply in a lab but large enough to do DNA sampling on. Let them multiply, split them into new populations, let them multiply, keep doing this from each new population. Watch what happens to the genetic diversity. There have been several, mostly with fruit flies (short generations, DNA easily extracted). See fruit fly experiments dna - Google Search... Browse at your leisure, but there have been significant changes to their DNA over the period they have been done Now I could go down the list and then list every one ... and the difference would be? The point is that there are hundreds of studies. Curiously they all tend to discredit Faith's thesis about genetic diversity dwindling because they show mutations and new traits. But here's one:
quote: A gene mutated causing white eyes, recessive and sex linked, but still it increased diversity. Here's another:
quote: Increasing reproductive inaccuracy ("transmission distortion") causing more mutations to increase diversity in response to ecological stress. Such fun. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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CRR writes: Textbooks often claim common descent is supported using the example of a tree of animals based upon the enzyme cytochrome c which matches the traditional evolutionary tree based upon morphology. However, textbooks rarely mention that the tree based upon a different enzyme, cytochrome b, sharply conflicts with the standard evolutionary tree.Problem 6: Molecular Biology Has Failed to Yield a Grand “Tree of Life” | Evolution News That's because cytB is found on the mitochondrial genome and evolves at a higher rate that cytC which is found in somatic DNA. Homoplasies quickly mask the phylogenetic signal due to the higher rate of evolution. CytB phylogenies are only relevant for closely related species.
...when comparing the amino acid sequence of cytochrome C of a bacterium (a prokaryote) with such widely diverse eukaryotes as yeast, wheat, silkmoth, pigeon, and horse, all of these have practically the same percentage difference with the bacterium (64C69%). There is no intermediate cytochrome between prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and no hint that the higher organism such as a horse has diverged more than the lower organism such as the yeast. The same sort of pattern is observed when comparing cytochrome C of the invertebrate silkmoth with the vertebrates lamprey, carp, turtle, pigeon, and horse. All the vertebrates are equally divergent from the silkmoth (27C30%). Yet again, comparing globins of a lamprey (a primitive cyclostome or jawless fish) with a carp, frog, chicken, kangaroo, and human, they are all about equidistant (73C81%). Cytochrome Cs compared between a carp and a bullfrog, turtle, chicken, rabbit, and horse yield a constant difference of 13C14%. There is no trace of any transitional series of cyclostome fish amphibian reptile mammal or bird. http://creation.com/...mmon-design-points-to-common-ancestry What you just pointed to is actually evidence for common ancestry in the form of genetic equidistance. The very fact that you think MODERN species are somehow temporally intermediate between ancestors and OTHER MODERN species shows just how poorly you understand evolution. All lineages continue evolving after a speciation event. One lineage does not stop evolving while another evolves. Modern bacteria are just as evolved as modern humans. The intermediate DNA sequences existed far in the past in organisms that are now long dead. Genetic equidistance IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD SEE IF EVOLUTION IS TRUE. You can read more here: Molecular clock - Wikipedia Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CRR writes: Oh FFS give us a decent reference; not a Google search. So says the person referencing creationist sites that get the basic science wrong.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2271 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Tangle writes: Pot, let me introduce you to kettle. Dear Tangled Twit, I gave a quote from and a link to a single relevant article which is fair dealing and not a breach of copyright.In contrast RAZD gave a link to a Google search. If you think I have breached copyright feel free to report me to DI.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
When there are a thousand studies that show diversification of fruit flies, a single reference is inadequate to show the number of such studies. This argument that diversity always decreases is so much toast in the real world that the sheer number of such studies is like an avalanche to bury the poser.
That's what you seem to miss in your whining about getting a bing (not google - they track your uses for ad companies) search. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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CRR writes: I gave a quote from and a link to a single relevant article which is fair dealing and not a breach of copyright.In contrast RAZD gave a link to a Google search. You gave us a link to an essay on a discredited creationist web site run by the dicredited Discovery Institute. Their 'work' is not science, is not peer reviewed nor is it published through scientific channels. It's a corrupt organisation. RAZD gave you a Google results page with numerous reputable sources of information on fruit fly research. Can you see the difference?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Faith writes: Lately, I have been reading the science forums to see if I understand anything that is being discussed. It's a setup, which is obvious anyway. Creationist silence gives you victory. How clever.It's a test of absolutely nothing do with the creationist viewpoint. It should not have been promoted. Your opponents claim that creationism has no model. Can you explain why it is you disagree? Also...does the creationist model fall under the discipline of the scientific method or is it understood using an alternative verification system?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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CRR Member (Idle past 2271 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
When there are a thousand studies that show diversification of fruit flies, a single reference is inadequate to show the number of such studies. This argument that diversity always decreases is so much toast in the real world that the sheer number of such studies is like an avalanche to bury the poser.
It was Google. Go back and check you previous post. Not that it matters; a bing or google search is not a valid reference. That's what you seem to miss in your whining about getting a bing (not google - they track your uses for ad companies) search. N Joi.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2271 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Yes there are thousands of studies on fruit flies.
Embryologist Jonathan Wells sums up the research on fruit fly mutations. "There are only 3 possible outcomes: A normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0BdziP3HBs at 6:00
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yes there are thousands of studies on fruit flies. Embryologist Jonathan Wells sums up the research on fruit fly mutations. "There are only 3 possible outcomes: A normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly." Then Jonathan Wells lies hyperbolically for christ. See Message 36 for examples, one from 1915 that shows a mutation causing white eyes arising. Now in Jonathan Wells' view this may be "defective" but the eyes work as well as the red ones. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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