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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
First we start with these basic definitions:
Sections underlined and in italics are for emphasis.
quote: The only working version of communism I am aware of were the Israeli Kubbutzes (traditionally collective communities in Israel that were based on agriculture). So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. What we have in so-called communist countries are oligarchies:
quote: Oligarchies are not limited to "communist" countries, but to kingdoms and other totalitarian tyrannical governments. (Iran, Libya, Syria, N Korea, etc). What is evil is the totalitarian tyrannical governments and the oppression of the people. Thus the common (ignorant) fear of communism is more appropriately directed at oligarchies. Especially here in the US where large corporations are taking over government.
quote: While no nation I know of is purely socialist in economic structure, there are a number of nations that have various levels of public ownership of things plus various levels of collective or cooperative ownership and some citizen owned equity. This applies to the US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc Public ownership generally applies to things for the general public welfare (healthcare, utilities, roads, police protection, fire protection, national protection, etc.). Collective or cooperative or citizen ownership applies to those corporations or institutions (worker owned cooperatives, for example) that operate democratically for public good or for profit, or both (charities?). In practice all countries with socialist institutions operate economically with capitalistic systems. What distinguishes socialism from communism then is:
Thus you can have democratic, socialized capitalistic countries (US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc)
quote: In pure capitalistic systems, corporations are oligarchies (power rests with a small number of people) and only the owners get rich (ie becomes plutocracy). The more the economic system reflects pure capitalism the larger the income gap gets between the owners and the workers, because the owners make the decisions on the operation of the companies. The US is NOT a socialist country, in spite of having many socialist institutions, because not all means of production are democratically controlled collective corporations. It IS a socialized, democratic, capitalist country with many oligarchic corporations. There are many countries that are more socialized than the US, but few that are as dominated by oligarchic corporations. Final definition:
quote: This applies to corporations (which the republicans claim are people), especially large corporations, and is the ultimate result of pure capitalism as the motive is operation for profit not for people. The evil of oligarchies and the totalitarian tyrannical control by sociopath management is an inevitable end result of pure capitalism. Just as socialized people are better members of society than sociopaths, socialized capitalism - with democratically controlled management - is better than sociopath oligarchies. It may be possible to reign in sociopath oligarchies with taxation systems that then direct the tax money to the benefit of the people and alleviate the worst effects of sociopathic oligarchy management, but experience shows it is temporary at best. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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AdminPhat Inactive Member
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Thread copied here from the Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So far I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. I don't see how this would ever be possible. Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature. We are a competitive lot. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. I don't see how this would ever be possible. Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. ... I agree, hence communism is a dead issue.
... Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature. We are a competitive lot. But this is not the only alternative. In governments we have democracies and oligarchies, and by and large people fare better under democracies. The same holds for corporations -- they can be oligarchies or democracies, and there are many examples of democratically controlled corporations that compete in the marketplace with the oligarchic corporations.
quote: Seventh largest economy with co-ops "typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5]" -- Sounds like a pretty successful approach to doing business. As pertains to socialism, these are worker owned and managed entities. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Forget about production. What about land being common property of all? Let businesses lease it (for free?): "use it, or loose it" I have a journal article I was ready about agricultural production. The Soviet leaders (during the time just after the premier visited the United States in 1959) liked our agricultural methods, and used them to improve production. They felt we were superior in every way except the land and business ownership. They increased yields tremendously after incorporating our methodology. Land ownership is ruining the world. In so many ways, where to begin. One area. High speed rail is just too expensive because of al the expensive land in places where the population is thick. Another example: Every inch of land is claimed in every city and town. High lot prices are ruining the economy. Who says space should be claimed by people? Absurd. USE IT OR...LOOSE IT! China has been a shocking success due to the government having greater control over land than in (especially) India or the United States. Especially the former. I need to check out my journal and see if the recent story is on line. EDIT: Under government ownership,people still will be able to be paid by the government. Just like the giant Ag corporations pay people. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: The evil of oligarchies and the totalitarian tyrannical control by sociopath management is an inevitable end result of pure capitalism. This is a pure rant. You've lost objectivity. Take a step back.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
This part of your rant is actually urging folks to use land... in areas that are densely populated. Which suggests that most of the land is either heavily populated or near heavily populated and that folks are not just whining when they don't want it used for a railroad. I hope that there is some sarcasm here, but even I cannot separate the "Poe" from the "buffoon". I'm going with sarcasm, which would be giving you the benefit of the doubt.
China has been a shocking success due to the government having greater control over land than in (especially) India or the United States. Especially the former. Exactly what are you advocating here? Just how much like China would you like to see the US economic system become? Yes, I am impressed with China's rail system. But China also seems to be neck and neck with the US when it comes to generating extreme ranges of income between the well-off and the poverty-stricken. Plenty of countries to better than the US and China in taking care of their populations. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
ignore it at your peril.
Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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RAZD writes: ignore it at your peril. Wow, that could have come out of Faith's mouth.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours.
Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours. They're also profitable...
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD writes: ignore it at your peril. Wow, that could have come out of Faith's mouth. Ignoring it here has given us today's republican congress that caters only to the rich (see new tax plan), and they in turn have given us Trump. If you don't think that is something to be concerned about, then enjoy it.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours. They're also profitable... For some. At the expense of others. Would you want a vaccine that benefited 1% of the population but made the other 99% sicker? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
You would need to sell this idea to a significant bunch of Republican voters. I'm doubting that the kind of argument you are using can be effective.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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