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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes: Too funny. Ah, there's the tell again. Game over then.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
NCE writes: Uh, I'd say you are the one going against the definition. Miracles are inexplicable and you're saying that we don't know it's a miracle until it is explained. I'm saying exactly the reverse. How on earth can you be confused about that? I'm saying that by definition a miracle is inexplicable. It's the paradox that makes it miraculous.
A miracle is when when you experience something that defies natural laws. There's no requirement for you to have scientific evidence of it. So maybe it's me. How can we know that something has defied a natural law without testing that the something has defied a natural law? Or are you simply demoting a miracle to a personal experience?
You can't really know that a miracle has occurred - for if you can test it then it is following natural laws not defying them. Perhaps this is it. The miracle has to happen in our natural world for us to observe it. Wine turns to blood as it is spoken at by a priest. This is a measurable phenomenom because it exists in our world. But it's also totally impossible, hence miracle. We measure the outcome, we can't measure the mechanism because it's supernatural.
If you think natural laws are being defied because of the results of your tests, then that means you need to rethink the natural laws. You're just saying that miracles are impossible again.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes: If something happens it is not impossible for it to happen. That's the only definition of a miracle. If something is possible, it can't be a miracle. You're confusing outcomes (natural world), with mechanisms (supernatural).
But you still have not provided, and I cannot imagine that there is, some way to test anything that is not natural. Wine and blood are natural - can be tested. Wine turning into blood is supernatural - can't be tested.
I happen to believe that there have been miracles but at least do not think there is any evidence or support or reason or logic for that belief. I happen to believe that there are no such things as miracles. Our beliefs are both irrelevant. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes: I understand that is your assertion but you have not provided any reason to think wine turning into blood is supernatural IF there was an actual instance of wine turning into blood. If there was an actual instance of wine turning into blood we'd immediatetly call it fraud or a mistake and dismiss it out of hand because we know that it is impossible for a person to turn wine into blood just by talking at it. If, however, wine repeatedly changed into blood at the moment it was chanted over by a priest during the religious service - as Catholics claim it does - and we could properly test that it had done so, then it would be a miracle. By definition.
Should there be such and instance it is only evidence that wine did turn into blood and not evidence of the supernatural. No, it's alchemy. We know that it's impossible to do what has been done. You can't dismiss our knowledge, there is no gap in our knowledge where we can posit a natural cause - not even theoretically.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes: Yes, I understand that is your assertion. But again, you show no evidence that it was a miracle or a supernatural event. Well we are discussing something that has never happened and will never happen, maybe that's why there's no evidence to produce?
You have repeated several times that there is no known way to test the supernatural. Well if natural causes have been ruled out, what is left? A miracle is where science says - 'that's impossible'.
A Miracle is defined as a supernatural event, something impossible in the natural world. Yes
If something happens in the natural world then it is not impossible. And that's your non sequitur. It's the cause of the miraculous event that is impossible not the event itself. Blood and wine are everyday materials. They don't change naturally from one to the other. For that we require an supernatural intervention. If you wish it to be clearer, if the Empire State Building was turned into an over-ripe banana by a priest saying a magic word, it would be a miracle would it not? If Trump uttered a truth that would be a miracle. If you car never needed gas again despite travelling thousands of miles etc etc. There are an infinite absurd situation that if they happened would be called miraculous.
That refutes the second part of the definition. It's simply your assertion that a miracle can not happen in the natural world, and it's an absurd position because for us to notice them they MUST occur in the natural world. By this insistence you're just saying miracles are impossible and wishing the word away
Reality trumps even definitions. What reality? The idea of a miracle is a total fantasy, but it's definition stands. If you want to say that miracles don't exist, fine, I agree. But you can't argue that the concept of a miracle doesn't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
So if the Empire State Building was turned into a banana by a preacher uttering a magic word that would not be a miracle. Ok, there's nothing left to be said.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jar writes:
And the word we use when the something that has happened has broken all natural laws iswait for ita miracle. It would be evidence that it happened. G'night.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Percy writes: You and Jar are on a merry-go-round, what you're both saying is very repetitive, but I just wanted you guys to know that I personally am fascinated. I'm just looking for a place to grab on but will remain silent until then. I normally give up when things get this repetitive. All that's necessary to resolve this is an admission that a miracle is a paradox. It's definition means that the impossible has happened. And as both ringo and Jar are very fond of saying, if the impossible happens, it wasn't impossible. So you either stick with the definition and accept that it has a meaning which requires a supernatural intervention in the natural world - the seperation of causation and materials (my position) or you insist that anything that happens in our world regardless of cause is possible and therefore non-miraculous no matter how impossible the event seems (their position). In their position a miracle can not exist - not in any way we could know about it anyway. It's a philosophical position and deeply suspect as a result. My position at least allows for the possibility of miraculous interventions - even though I believe them to be preposterous. It's a pragmatic position. It also keeps the word in the dictionary for which I can only apologise. Best I can do.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: You can also apologize for misrepresenting the dictionary. Neither Merriam-Webster nor dictionary.com nor thefreedictionary.com uses the word "impossible". Breaking the laws of physics=impossible Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
NCE writes: I'm saying it is impossible to know it was a miracle. Yes I know. I know because you've asserted it a couple of dozen times now. It's still as wrong as the first time you said it. If a priest said 'fly up to heaven' and the Firth of Forth Bridge sprouted two thousand foot wings and flew off into the sunset, scatterring trains, cars and people on its way, whilst whistelling Halleluya you'd still be shaking your head saying, 'no miracle, no sir.'Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: The dictionaries don't talk about "breaking the laws of physics" either. They describe miracles as seeming to be inexplicable by our current understanding of the laws of nature. quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: Etc etcJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: I'd be asking the priest how he did it. He says that he just asked god to do it and he's as surprised as you are.
And I'd be examining the YouTube videos for clues. There are 500 videos from multiple angles and several thousand eye witnesses all showing and telling the same thing. The RAF was scrambled and followed the bridge until it left the earth's atmosphere. They have photographs of laughing cherubs frolicking on the bridge and a man in a beard is looking on from a cloud.
Have you heard of the Scientific Method at all? What more scientific evidence do you require? I can give you anyting you ask for - what will it take? Or is it that once again all you're saying is that you believe that miracles are impossible?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: No mention at all of impossibility breaking natural/scientific laws=impossible
quote: EtcJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: We need something to tie the cherubs and the bearded man to reality. Suggest a series of experiments. We ask the priest to do it again with London bridge. This time the scientist have every bit of equipment imaginable. It all checks out. They capture a cherub. It's tricky because basically he can go anywhere he wants anytime he likes, but he decides to stick around and be tested. He's definitely not natural and he tells you in ancient hebrew that he works from the god of Abraham and takes a team from NASA to check out the Pearly Gates. Need anything else?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Ringo writes: Exactly how does it "check out"? How tall is the bearded man? What do the MRI scans indicate? Is he human? Alien? Same for the cherub: Did you do a polygraph on him? How far is it to the Pearly Gates? What are their orbital characteristics? I can provide you with every possible piece of information you ask for, god and his minions are co-operating fully. Just ask and you get the answer. You're free to test anything with anything. Satisfied? Or have you, in fact, found yourself arguing non-scientifically like a creationist demananding the absolute proof that you can't actually define and believe can't exist.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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