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Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Today on the radio (Sirius XM Progress), I heard Thom Hartman read this. This is the version (which appears to be identical to what had been read) reposted by Sandy Goodman on Huffington Post as What Joe Republican Forgets -- she states that she had gotten it from Hartman's site:
quote: What has made us such a successful species is that we are social animals. We live together and work together towards common goals. Individually, we are weak and defenseless, but together we can build entire cities and nations. We all depend on others as they depend on us. That is our social contract with each other.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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What is missing from that is the acknowledgement that Joe Republican has forgotten that in the past it was Republicans that helped with many if not most of those issues. Theodore Roosevelt and Eisenhower and Nixon and even Goldwater were among the voices fighting for many of those things.
Today's Republican have no connection to the Grand Old Party.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
jar writes:
quote: Incorrect. In fact, Republicans led the fights against most of those things.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
What is missing from that is the acknowledgement that Joe Republican has forgotten that in the past it was Republicans that helped with many if not most of those issues. No, what you're not getting is that Joe Republican denigrates in extreme terms those who had worked and fought so hard to provide him with a decent life. And he denigrates them so savagely regardless of who they were or what political party they were a part of, even the ones who were Republicans. And that he is so deluded as to believe that he got where he is with no help from anybody else. I have actually met people in the wild who think that and whom I would love to see dropped all alone, naked, and with zero supplies into a wilderness so we can come back later to see the marvelous civilization that they built all by themselves. We really should at least give them a steel knife, but that would deprive them of the joy and personal satisfaction of not having to depend on anybody else. IOW, that piece is not about actual history, but rather the deluded world-view of modern Republicans. And from what I understand, both major parties were courting Eisenhower and he didn't really have any strong ideological ties with the GOP.
Today's Republican have no connection to the Grand Old Party. Amen to that, brother! The wing-nut fringe has taken over. Looks like we may be heading for a 3 or 4 party system: progressives, corporation-moderates (of both colors, or not), and the wing-nuts (including the theocratic Christians eager to brown-nose up to the Anti-Christ for the promise of secular power).
PS A Repugnican troll tried to throw the Dixie-crats at me to proclaim that the Democratic Party is the party of slavery and racism. I reminded him that a lot has changed in 1.5 centuries (as in former Mexican President Portillo's remark of "It's been a long time since we've worn feathers.") and I challenged him to go to a KKK rally and start pulling their hoods off looking for a Democrat -- unfortunately, under Trump they feel so emboldened that they have stopped wearing hoods. There is history, things and parties change, and there is a history of how a party has changed. A review of how the two major parties have changed should be interesting. Edited by dwise1, : PS
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. The question is why. Your explanation is basically that people are evil. ... Not quite, capitalism is sociopathic and attracts sociopaths. There is no room in prConsider ofit for empathy. Why are they more successful? Consider their massive ad and propaganda campaign against socialism, their purchase of government officials\reps\etc, and the fact that the average american is ill informed and gullible. Co-ops are less likely to blow their horn and advocate for more co-ops, but everyone seems to buy into the idea that any new business needs to have an owner/boss and an oligarchic organization. Try getting a loan to start a new business. There is a systemic bias to oligarchic organizations.
How's that working out for you? Well enough. Athens wasn't built in a day, but it was built through democratic process. Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success. Most of these are involved in the food industry, with fully certified inspected kitchens to help them get started. We also have an artist district that is tax free. So I am working with some other residents to build a Town Solar/wind/water Power system, initially to power just the Town buildings, but capable of expanding to service people in town. This has already been done in several places, so we are not inventing anything here. This would also allow people who don't have suitable locations on their property to participate by investing in panels. We also have a lot of historic buildings, so they could obtain solar power without panels on the buildiings. And I have started working with the same people to set up a Town community internet service, initially to provide free internet in the town core, but capable of expanding to service people in town. Again this has already been done elsewhere. We figure that if we can provide cheap dependable power and internet services that businesses will find the town an attractive place to set up. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Now I think he overstates some of the historical aspects, but the message is clear socialism + democracy + capitalistic economy Works. There are many examples of working socialistic capitalistic democracies. Note: I was most surprised by the Catalan history, and that enriches my understanding of the dispute between the Catalans and the Spanish government. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. ... Only because of sheer numbers. When they are compared on businesses in the same market the cooperatives do better. And they certainly are better work environments for the workers.
... I'm saying that from a business perspective, oligarchies work better. Which is just your opinion. Heavily biased by your personal opinion of what "works better" means. Take any company you like and replace the oligarchy hierarchy management with a democratically elected hierarchy, where all the people are doing the same jobs, can you honestly say that one is better than the other? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: Only because of sheer numbers. When they are compared on businesses in the same market the cooperatives do better. And they certainly are better work environments for the workers. Can you provide evidence for those two statements?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Can you provide evidence for those two statements? quote: Is an obvious one. Less known is
quote: These continue to grow and expand because they work, because they are better corporation models that give back to society rather than take take take. The cooperatives reduce unemployment and improve their local economy via feedback from cooperatives to the society. They exist because they are successful. But the real evidence is in the initial descriptions on this thread:
quote: That to me says they do better in one on one comparisons.
quote: Reading through these you will see that the best environments allow the individual worker to have input/say in how he participates, while the worst environments are dictatorial. A worker cooperative by definition involves workers in decisions that involve their work environment, while oligarchies by definition are dictatorial at some level such that workers would not have the same degrees of input. Similar to citizens in countries that are either democratic (social involvement) or oligarchic (dictatorial). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: These continue to grow and expand because they work, because they are better corporation models that give back to society rather than take take take. The cooperatives reduce unemployment and improve their local economy via feedback from cooperatives to the society. They exist because they are successful. There are many individual examples of successful co-operatives, I provided you with the Mondragon one. Here in the UK one of our most successful retailers is a profit sharing co-op John Lewis, and the archaetypal co-operative is our Co-op - another retailer. Individual instances of co-ops are interesting, but they are the exception - by a very long way. You have to show why you think that co-ops have a better business model than the demonstrably more successful limited company thay post dates them.
forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] ... This is terrible analysis. Co-ops generally populate specific markets, predominantly low margin, low skill, low tech area like agriculture - where there are exceptions they tend to be commoditised such as mutual banks and savings societies and retail groups. To compare them with the total market is just silly. How many co-ops are hi-tech and entrepreneurial for example? Business failure is a natural result of innovation - it's how evolution itself works.
Reading through these you will see that the best environments allow the individual worker to have input/say in how he participates, while the worst environments are dictatorial. Whether this is true or simply your hope in this case is irrelevant because all these models exist in every company form. They are not restricted to co-ops.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
One of the things that stands out where cooperatives are most successful is where there is an umbrella organization, for instance
quote: quote: quote: In addition to the Values noted above, the statement lists 7 principles:
Therefore to promote cooperatives the best approach would be through an umbrella organization following this structure that provides education, information and support -- an "incubator" for new cooperatives. Companies run by the people, for the people, of the people ... Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : repurposed duplicate postby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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