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Author | Topic: Violence in the Bible and the Quran | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
You're welcome although I'm too obtuse to understand your reference to a "petal." Sounds nice though, so thanks again. Ahh, you noticed. (blush)
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Faith writes: I don't care one bit about crazy groups in Uganda or India, they sound like they're on the level of David Koresh or some other cult. And yet, they still exist.
They are not Christian except in their own crazy minds. ... Any violence done in the name of Christianity is a violation of Christian doctrine... Thank-you for proving my point correct:
Here are some Muslims denouncing violence done in the name of their religion:
70 Muslim Clerics Issue Fatwa Against Violence And Terrorism quote: Both sides seem to denounce the violence.
There are NO such "minor groups" in Christianity that are actually Christian, and the "minor groups" in Islam are part and parcel of the religion, true followers of their doctrine. And yet, the evidence shows that you are wrong: Christian leaders denounce the violence done in the name of Christianity claiming they are not "true Christians."Muslim leaders denounce the violence done in the name of Islam claiming they are not "true Muslims." I'm going to take the Muslim leaders' words about who is and who is not a "true Muslim" just as much as I'll take the Christian leaders' words about who is and who is not a "true Christian." That's why my list doesn't mention anyone being a Christian or a Muslim.It only mentions that people exist who use the books/religions as support for their violent actions. Such a fact cannot be denied, for both religions. You are persisting in making false equivalences after they've been sufficiently answered. If you think you can sufficiently show one of the points as false, please do so at your earliest convenience. Here they are again, in their yet-to-be-refuted glory:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And yet, they still exist. Yeah, Mormons exist too but that doesn't make them Christians. With a standard that low no wonder there's no reasoning with you.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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I thought I'd poke around a little on the subject and came up with this. Can Muslims be Friends With Christians and Jews It is an Islamice site.
It's not that long and an interesting read. The following is the last paragraph from the article.
quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: With a standard that low no wonder there's no reasoning with you. Here, again, is my standard:
I understand you find such facts to be unreasonable.However, you seem to be unable to show how such facts are actually unreasonable (or untrue.) I am not claiming to have the ability to change your mind on what is or is not reasonable.I only claim that these are, indeed, facts.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Those are not facts, they are your own made-up fiction. The Koran does not contain a "description" of violence. It advocates it, it does not even have much in the way of historical reports of anything at all. Muslims are directly commanded to kill people, they are not relying on historical reports.
Also you have shown no "minor group" that commits violence based on the historical reports of the Bible. It takes an illiterate to have such an idea in the first place but I know of no "groups" of that nature. Islam has no legitimate majority group that opposes violent jihad because that is the traditional understanding of the term and those who oppose it are modern revisionists with no legitimate standing. Bible believers soundly reject any interpretation of the Old Testament violence as commanded of us today. Your list is completely false. Those are not facts, there is not one fact in the list, and I have shown how time after time after time. You are completely ignorant of what you are talking about. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: The Koran does not contain a "description" of violence. It advocates it, it does not even have much in the way of historical reports of anything at all. Muslims are directly commanded to kill people, they are not relying on historical reports. Even if you're right... an advocation of violence is still a description of violence.
Also you have shown no "minor group" that commits violence based on the historical reports of the Bible. I've never claimed such a thing.My claim is that people exist who use the description of violence in the Bible to support their violent actions. Again, here's a link to many groups of existing people doing just that: Christian Terrorism Islam has no legitimate majority group that opposes violent jihad because that is the traditional understanding of the term and those who oppose it are modern revisionists with no legitimate standing. Your claim goes against reality. Again, here's the reality: 70 Muslim Clerics Issue Fatwa Against Violence And Terrorism It doesn't matter that you don't believe it, or that you interpret the Quran differently than the Muslim leaders do.All that matters is that these leaders exist, and they interpret the Quran in such a way as to denounce the use of the Quran to commit violence. Just as Christian leaders exist, and they interpret the Bible in such a way as to denounce the use of the Bible to commit violence. Your list is completely false. I do not see how as you've helped prove every point to be true.
You are completely ignorant of what you are talking about. I think the problem is that you're unable to separate your personal connection to the Bible that provides you with personal growth from the objective fact that others use the Bible in another way (regardless of them doing so "rightly" or "wrongly.") Similarily, you have a personal requirement (due to your personal attachment to the Bible) that the Quran is wrong and evil. This drives you to demand that the Quran must be "worse" than the Bible. Of course, the conflict with reality doesn't seem to stop you. Your personal attachment to your belief in the Bible overrides your ability to acknowledge and deal with objective facts about the world.This may strengthen your personal belief - that in and of itself I actually see as a good thing. The bad part is how much of a struggle it causes you as you are forced to face reality on a day-to-day basis - this is obviously extremely frustrating for you. You cannot make reality disappear - yet you need reality to disappear in order to pacify the drive behind your personal beliefs. This is a personal issue you have created for yourself.And it is only yourself who can resolve it for you. The obvious fact that your personal attachment to your belief is so strong that you do not yet want to resolve this struggle condemns you to building up more and more frustrations as your day-to-day conflicts with reality continue. Perhaps one day the frustrations will become so large that you no longer wish to ignore them.Or, maybe not. I just hope your frustrations do not become so large that you begin to hurt other people.As long as you refrain from hurting others, however, I have no issue with you having to deal with frustrations... no matter how massive you've created them for yourself. Of course, since your frustrations are of your own making, and they only affect you, and you are making a personal choice to continue with them... I have absolutely no problem with repeatedly showing actual, objective, factual reality to you until you either accept it or grow too tired of the frustrations and move along. If you can actually show something based in reality to refute any of the main points for this thread, please do so at your earliest convenience:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What a bunch of blithering blather you just repeat over and over again. Wake up.
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ooh-child Member (Idle past 373 days) Posts: 242 Joined: |
Also you have shown no "minor group" that commits violence based on the historical reports of the Bible. Didn't southern-state Christians, prior to the Civil War, use 'historical reports of the bible' to justify slavery? And, isn't slavery inherently violent?
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: What a bunch of blithering blather you just repeat over and over again. Wake up. That's some nice alliteration. If you'd ever like to return to the facts, here they are again - still bathing in their yet-to-be-refuted glory:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You may be right about that, I'm not sure, but the Bible context for slavery is either through military conquest or economic necessity, not stealing people to turn into slaves as was done here, and the Mosaic law prescribed humane standards. And this is a different subject anyway.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Gosh you're stubborn. Those are your own fantasy, they are not facts.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Faith writes: Gosh you're stubborn. I actually rather enjoy changing my mind.It means I'm learning. However, I will not change my mind just because it would make your personally-induced frustrations easier for you to handle. I will gladly change my mind if you can use reality to show how any of these items are false:
Those are your own fantasy, they are not facts. Your Dad can beat up my Dad is a fantasy, and not a fact.These above points, however, are facts. You can tell the difference because of the support that can be provided from reality. Half of it you accept. The other half you reject, but the links and examples I gave still exist to show that this half is still factual even if you decide to unreasonably reject them.
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ooh-child Member (Idle past 373 days) Posts: 242 Joined: |
You may be right about that, I'm not sure, but the Bible context for slavery is either through military conquest or economic necessity, not stealing people to turn into slaves as was done here, and the Mosaic law prescribed humane standards. I don't care about 'laws' prescribing humane standards, I thought we all agreed slavery is violent. And the whole reason for slavery in the South was economic necessity. We studied that in school, remember?
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 763 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
My several-great grandpa Junkin was a preacher and Doctor of Divinity who authored a chatechism Particularly for the Education of Colored Persons, encouraging them to follow Biblical teaching in being calmly obedient to their masters. Yeah. Slavery supporter.
"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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