God Definitely Exist!

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782."Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782."I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814."In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814."The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles." John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815."As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816."When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it." John Adams, from Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion."Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816.

In Message #7, Phatboy offers these thoughts:"People can also pray to statues whom they believe represent God. Advantage: Concrete
Disadvantage: idol. Block of stone. Limits God."and"The Orthodox had the concept of Icons. An Icon is not an idol. An icon is a window to heaven. Thus, a concrete symbol and yet a view of the infinite."WHOA, Buck!Othodox who? Certainly not Othodox Jews! Are you talking about Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, or just othodox idolators generally?Since the last couple of messages are discussing "definitions" generally, may I offfer the following definitions from Websters Dictionary:ICON:
1 : a usually pictorial representation : IMAGE
2 [Late Greek eikOn, from Greek] : a conventional religious image typically painted on a small wooden panel and used in the devotions of Eastern Christians
3 : an object of uncritical devotion : IDOLIDOL:
1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a : a likeness of somethingSo, now again, what is the "advantage" of worshipping an "ICON" versus worshipping an "IDOL", Phatboy? Are you saying that somewhere along the line someone conveniently authorized a misrepresented or misinterpretted meaning of icon so that worshipping a painting, picture, or plaster statue in one religious setting is not the same idolatry as worshipping a carved image, stone statue, or totum pole in a different context?Do I smell horse hockey here?[And not to diverge into another topic altogether, but is that what all this killing in the name of God has been about?]Bottom Line: Icons are idols, and icon worship is idolatry.Apparently, even after all this time and opportunity for understanding, the pagan heart prevails.Peace in iconoclasm.

Phatboy:Thank you for your sincere interest in the subject of idols, icons, idolatry, and iconoclasm. It indeed has far-reaching implications not only in the religious world, but in the secular world as well.In the interest of time, may I simply introduce some information for further study and discussion.The Exodus Story includes an episode recorded in Numbers 21 that during the wanderings in Sinai, the Israelites were complaining to Moses about God's provision. The story goes that God sent fiery serpents as a judgment.There is speculation that the fiery serpents were a species of desert parasite that lays larvae in a person’s leg, and the larvae grow into very long worms (sometimes up to 3 feet long!) that can be removed by opening the flesh, attaching one end of the worm to a staff, and then winding the worm round and round the staff to extract it. Hence the comparison of the Nehustan to the twin serpent staff of the medical profession known as the Caduceus, or Staff of Hermes.The Bible relates that in response to Moses' prayer for the people, God instructed Moses to set up a bronze serpent on a pole, and everyone who "looked upon it" would live.[Numbers 21:4-9 re: the Bronze Snake (Nehustan)] They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; They spoke against God and against Moses, and said, 'Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!' Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, ‘We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the fiery serpents away from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. The LORD said to Moses, ‘Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.’ So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a fiery serpent and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.Some folks think this incident in the desert may have led to the Greek legends of Aescalapius, the god of healing, who was symbolized as a brass serpent on a pole, or cross; as well as to New Testament comparisons of Christ to the Nehustan.Centuries after the Exodus Story (according to Bible chronology), King David’s son, Hezekiah, became disturbed when he discovered that the Nehustan was still around and in fact was being worshipped by some priests as a cult icon. (Shades of the Shroud of Turin)Hezekiah had the Nehustan destroyed along with other idols worshipped by idolaters and altars erected for their worship.[2 Kings 18:4.] (Hezekiah) removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.Phatboy, I think the point is that even when an idol or an icon is created with the best intentions in mind (in the case of the Nehustan, by direct orders from God), there is the danger that undue reverence will be given to such a totem, resulting is misguided individual worship and cult worship.Anyway, that's the argument from the point of view of an iconoclast.Peace.[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 02-15-2004]