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Author Topic:   God Definitely Exist!
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2 of 12 (86237)
02-14-2004 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iftikhar
02-13-2004 12:35 PM


How we think about God
That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular. Abraham Lincoln
Honest Abe! Good show!
When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow.Anais Nin
Well...true enough! I never base my belief on a mere flip of a coin.
The moral and religious system which Jesus Christ transmitted to us is the best the world has ever seen, or can see. Ben Franklin
Well, Ben trusted lightning also! He also was quoted as saying
Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
A warning about religious zeal comes from Blaise Pascal, who once said
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
Don Hirschberg wittily said that
Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color
yet the great lawyer Clarence Darrow succinctly stated his heart:
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -- that is all that agnosticism means. Scopes trial, Dayton, Tennessee, July 13, 1925

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iftikhar, posted 02-13-2004 12:35 PM iftikhar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 11 by Cthulhu, posted 02-15-2004 8:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 5 of 12 (86310)
02-14-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by DC85
02-14-2004 2:18 PM


Creator or Creation?
DC85 writes:
You may say things can't pop out of nowhere.... but a god also defies that logic
Unless of course a Creator who is by definition Omnipotant is the very source of definition...thus trumping the logic by redefining the definition.

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 Message 4 by DC85, posted 02-14-2004 2:18 PM DC85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by dextar, posted 02-15-2004 2:01 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 7 of 12 (86400)
02-15-2004 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by dextar
02-15-2004 2:01 AM


Re: Creator or Creation?
dextar writes:
the problem with this is that we have created these words
Let me ask you to ponder this, dextar. If God is rational, then God would not arbitrarily assign random value to definition...in other words, He could declare that Red is Blue and Lo and Behold, all that once was red became blue! Let us assume, however, that God and humans agree on red. It is just that God understands red better than we do. God understands logic better than we do,. God understands__________better than we do. This is my first point. God has a superior understanding.
dextar writes:
Its like saying you can comprehend infinity, or nothing.
I can comprehend neither "infinity" or the concept of "nothing". I can only comprehend God through His Son, Jesus Christ.
People can pray to nature or to the clouds because of the vastness...the aw....the largesse of a world bigger than them. Advantage: Concept of a large God. Disadvantage: Abstract prayer
People can also pray to statues whom they believe represent God. Advantage: Concrete
Disadvantage: idol. Block of stone. Limits God.
The Orthodox had the concept of Icons. An Icon is not an idol. An icon is a window to heaven. Thus, a concrete symbol and yet a view of the infinite.

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 Message 8 by Abshalom, posted 02-15-2004 9:59 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 9 of 12 (86415)
02-15-2004 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Abshalom
02-15-2004 9:59 AM


Re: Icon vs Idol
Abshalom! This is indeed a very profound topic for discussion, and it carries over into many issues beliefs and disagreements among Judaism and Christianity. For the purpose of my reply, let us focus on the definition of the word, Icon as you have presented it.My little websters dictionary on the computer defines icon thusly:
icon \"-'kn\ n 1 : image; esp : a religious image painted on a wood panel 2 : a small picture on a computer display that suggests the purpose of an available function
Whereas the definition which you gave has an icon defined as this:
ICON:1 : a usually pictorial representation : IMAGE2 [Late Greek eikOn, from Greek] : a conventional religious image typically painted on a small wooden panel and used in the devotions of Eastern Christians3 : an object of uncritical devotion : IDOL
So we have defined the terms. For the purposes of the defense of Christianity, I will say that I am refering to the icons in either definition #1 or definition#2. I am not suggesting idolatry. Allow me to share some scriptures.We may not agree on all points and yet I sense a common understanding in a mystical sense.
Deut 4:15-20=You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars--all the heavenly array--do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
From this scripture, it is quite clear that God wants us to focus on Him and not on created things as a source or an inspiration of wisdom. The New Testament concurs with this. Note:
Rom 1:18-25=The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.
Perhaps this verse describes the Fall of Man since Eve did in fact listen to a snake instead of to God. What do you think?

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 Message 8 by Abshalom, posted 02-15-2004 9:59 AM Abshalom has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 12 of 12 (86533)
02-15-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Cthulhu
02-15-2004 8:08 PM


Honest Abe?
I just randomly grabbed it off of a quote sight. I did not check or verify the source but what are you suggesting? That Abe was an atheist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Cthulhu, posted 02-15-2004 8:08 PM Cthulhu has not replied

  
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