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Author | Topic: Choosing a faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
I could reply to a lot more in this post, but I'll just reply to this portion:
GDR writes: You guys sit around congratulating each other for your atheistic beliefs but my beliefs are bollox, embarrassing, wasteful and irrelevant. If you guys want this forum to be an atheistic forum where you can sit around congratulating yourselves for not falling for all that religious nonsense then let me know and I'll be out of your hair with my drivel. It isn't that your beliefs are "bollox, embarrassing, wasteful and irrelevant." It's your promotion and defense of your beliefs that has these qualities. If you have substance then let's hear it. --Percy
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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But maybe I'm wrong to be thinking in that direction. There are all those books and movies that are in essence about adding up people's scores to see if they get into heaven. The oldest one I'm aware of is Heaven Can Wait in 1943 starring Don Ameche, but it's a very common theme, there must be older. Just for fun, check out the recent TV series, The Good Place, which is on Netflix (to my knowledge). Getting into the "Good Place" depends on your overall score in which good actions gain you points and bad actions lose you points. Basically, everybody got the afterlife very wrong (about 5% right) except for this one guy, Doug, who one night was really high on mushrooms and scored 92% correct -- they idolize him in the afterlife and everyone has his picture on the wall. What you need to pay especial attention to is the public displays of what scores you get for what -- sorry, I forget which episode in the first season does that. For example, watching the reality show, "The Bachelor", loses you a ton-load of points. Later when the demons from the "Bad Place" arrive to litigate, they're all worried to get back to the "Bad Place" so that they don't miss the next episode of "The Bachelor." Very fun TV show. Share and enjoy!
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: So I'll just scrap it all and start over: 1. A purpose feels strong and good and right if it is something you personally hold as a priority. -the more the purpose aligns with your own personal feeling on it's priority, the stronger the sense of "this is right" will be 2. If you can find a purpose that aligns with something that you personally hold as the highest of all priorities, this will then be your "ultimate purpose" because you will be taking action in directions that align with your highest of all possible priorities. -like bad-ass Stone Mason Stile making bad-ass ornaments -like GDR and sacrificial love -like Roman leaders and trying to "bring Rome to the world" -like baseball-lovers trying to get everyone to play baseball 3. My point is: It's possible to become aware of a purpose from an outside source that matches your personal feelings on priority. But with the nuance that comes along with "personal feelings of priority" it's highly likely that it's not going to match exactly or possibly not match at all. However, if you do some inner-soul-searching and discover for yourself exactly what your personal feelings on priorities actually are... and then create a purpose for yourself that matches your highest priority... it will, by definition, match EXACTLY, and therefore have a much greater chance (100%, actually) of being your "ultimate purpose" rather than any other purpose found from any other external source (even an all-powerful, creator God.) This is the context I'm coming from when I'm saying God's purpose can only match our own "ultimate purpose" and can never exceed it. Because "purpose" comes from our own feelings on priorities. God can provide an idea that matches our own feelings on priorities... but never exceed them, since ultimate-purpose/feelings-on-highest-priorities come from within. This is where I'm coming from when I say that claiming other-information can be an "ultimate purpose" simply doesn't understand what purpose actually is. If you do not agree, and still think ultimate purpose can come from any external source (even God,) I would expect something along showing me that #1 or #2 is wrong above, and that isn't actually what "purpose" is and "purpose" is something else. -this would involve you actually defining/identifying what "purpose" is and how your explanation is more accurate (closer to reality) than mine. That is mostly correct but what I mean by ultimate is when this world is fully recreated sacrificial love will be freely chosen as the norm. If you want to argue that "ultimate purpose" is "ultimate nice/love/sacrificial-love..." on some made up scale (even if made up by God Himself) I find that argument easily shown to be incongruent with reality as many people have "ultimate purpose" in things that do not involve people at all (like my example of bad-ass Stone Mason Stile) and this is immediately disproven if you have any respect for how many people live their lives in reality. To me, this reads as "what I think is best is ultimate for everyone because I really like what I think is best." -it's nothing but arrogance and ego -it's easily proven to be false -why should anyone agree with you unless they already happen to agree with you before you even talk to them? -it is entirely unpersuasive from an objective, outsider position I actually think we generally agree, but the problem is that I'm not using the term "ultimate purpose" correctly as you have rightly pointed out. I had to read your post several times to sort that out and thank you for your patience. Maybe I should make something of a disclaimer here that you have probably picked up on. Coming out of high school I considered university and rejected the idea as I wanted a career as a pilot and I just didn't see university as an advantage and it would just delay my my purpose which might even be part of my "ultimate purpose". :-) As a result I don't have the ability to express myself with the competence that most of you here have. In the end it worked out well and I enjoyed a 40 career with the air force and then Air Canada. I always loved my job and resented being aged out and having to retire at age 60. As a result though, I often struggle to come up with as coherent an argument as I would like to. Let me try again with the stone mason analogy. The junior stone mason has been given a task of carving the stone in a very specific way. His purpose then is to complete faithfully the task that he has been given. It might even decide that it is his ultimate purpose. The master stone mason then has the purpose of using the stone as a part of his purpose, which could also decide is his ultimate purpose, of completing the castle. In trying to apply this analogy as individuals we come up with our own purposes and all of the purposes in our lives form our basic nature. Our purposes in life might be being a good and loving parent and spouse, being good at our job, serving and helping to provide those that need help. Conversely it might be about being as rich as possible, it might be about achieving power for its own sake, etc. All these things go towards towards forming our basic nature, which, in a sense, all combined forms our ultimate purpose. Presumably God. like us, has many purposes but has the ultimate purpose, (from my Christian perspective), of putting together a recreated world inhabited by those who freely choose a life based on the Golden Rule which has become their basic nature. I don't pretend to know the mechanism of how God works that out, but some how it is the renewal of all things according to Paul so I'll go with that and leave it up to God, and i, through faith, trust in His perfect judgement. I'll be interested to see if you agree that we agree on how I should have been using the term "ultimate purpose".He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes:
No, it is Roman intervention
But the end of the events is God’s intervention, and that is when it occurs. PaulK writes:
Agreed
The revolt is still earthly. PaulK writes:
No, it is about the establishment of an earthly kingdom that does not have borders and whose citizens are those that have taken on faith the role of spreading God's peace, love and justice to the world through word and deed.
The Resurrection isn’t even part of this. PaulK writes: Of course, but I just misread as the time at which Daniel was written.
he Maccabean revolt is the right date - but for some reason you confused it with the end of the Hasmonean dynasty. In reality the Maccabean revolt lead to the foundation of that dynasty. PaulK writes: I'd call it a metaphor with a futuristic prediction.
That is likely fiction. And nearly half the chapter is the explanation of the “dream” (verses 15-28) PaulK writes:
The term "Son of Man" was used as you say to in reference to one being human ,but it also over time came to have a messianic understanding. Since we don’t have Jesus’ exact words he could have been just emphasising his humanity, since that is the meaning of that phrase.Or even sometimes speaking of humanity in general. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Really? Mark 13
26 “Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels and gather the elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
You think that that’s the Romans doing that ? Consider also verses 33-36 - do you really think that the metaphorical “master of the house” is the Romans? And then look at Daniel 7, which is clearly alluded to:
27 The kingship and dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.” Do you really think that the Romans are going to arrange that? Rather than, say, mass executions for the rebellious Jews?
quote: You can call the “dream” a metaphor if you like but the explanation seems to be intended literally.
quote: Since we don’t know for sure exactly what Jesus said, trying to parse his words closely is futile. We can’t be certain how often he used the phrase referring to himself (perhaps not at all) or what he meant by it.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: It is no different than A Christian writing on atheism. He is not an unbiased researcher, and holds views that there is virtually no agreement with amongst other non-Christian researchers. I have read many authors who argue against the resurrection.
I know, it's really unfair, a non-Christian historian researching and writing about Christianity. Progress hurts. Tangle writes: So you want me to read an entire book by Carriere who is hardly impartial but yet you ignore the wiki article I sent you that does shows that Carriere's views are outside the norm for historical scholars. I've read a lot of stuff written by Christians - who are "hardly impartial sources" - there is almost nothing else. I suggest you read Carrier if you want a less biased view. His book 'On the Historicity of Jesus' is peer reviewed and fully referenced so you can check the sources yourself and you will have seen another side of the argument. I'll repeat them as you seemed to have missed them.
quote: quote: quote: All from this site: Historicity of Jesus Tangle writes: The early Christians were hardly fixated on the Romans. They had no army and espoused a non-violent solution. There were in fact dozens of apocalyptic cults based on the fictitious Daniel prophecies that were supposed to come true in the 1st century CE. The only way the Christians could continue against the Romans was to invent the idea of a virtual victory through resurrection. It's a smart move. Or at least it would have been if it had any semblance of fact. It's all myth and propaganda. You can't even show that the main character in the story actually existed, let alone all the stuff that he was supposed to have done. You haven't even started.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: It is no different than A Christian writing on atheism. He is not an unbiased researcher, and holds views that there is virtually no agreement with amongst other non-Christian researchers. I suggest you read him and arrive at a conclusion based on what you read, rather than dismiss him as biased on no evidence. Non-Christian professional historians researching the historicity of the bible are as rare as rocking horse droppings. The entire catalogue of biblical commentary has been the preserve of believers almost by definition.
So you want me to read an entire book by Carriere who is hardly impartial but yet you ignore the wiki article I sent you that does shows that Carriere's views are outside the norm for historical scholars. I don't care whether you read about the subject you profess to be interested or not, I'm just pointing out that there is another viewpoint that you are discarding without reason. I did not ignore the wiki article, I've read it and several of the authors in it. Carrier's views are not surprisingly outside the Christian consensus, if they weren't he would be a Christian as is the overwhelming majority of the authors in the wiki. But they're not outside modern, independent analysis.
quote: Price, Robert (1997) Christ a Fiction The fact is, you have no facts. That's a problem because you should be able to show beyond debate that this guys actually existed, but you can't because convincing external evidence is totally absent. This was an important religious and political figure, but no contemporary historian wrote about him and no Roman records record him. Funny that. Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ - RationalWiki Edited by Tangle, . Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I don't form my beliefs on particular passages but I try and understand it holistically. Sure there are passages or even verses such as the one in my signature that seem to succinctly summarize my beliefs. Mind you, I think that all of the Bible has things to teach us as long as we don't try to read it like a text book, a newspaper or a set of laws.
It seems that you've abandoned everything in the bible apart from the nice stuff that you prefer to believe. You also add that it's not important which god you believe in so long as it has all these nice attributes. Tangle writes: But all this leaves you is a general belief to live by the Golden Rule. Under that regime there is no need for all the paraphernalia of any particular religion; worship, preaching, scripture, beliefs etc etc. It seems that under your scheme atheists get to heaven too to why the need for any religious belief at all? You seem to believe that the whole point of religion, and specifically Christianity, is to wind up in the good place. I suppose that is important but IMHO that is not at all the main point of Christianity. Christianity is a calling on our lives to live lives based on love of the other, or the Golden Rule works fine. The thing is yes, you don't need Christianity but, I know that in my pre-Christian days my priority was, (aside from my family which came first), promotion, getting an increase in pay, a better house, parties etc. That was what I got from the secular world. I do find that as a Christian I'm less self focused, (got a long way to go though), than I had been. I am involved in projects with both my time and money that I wouldn't have been in without Christianity. As you seem to be focused on what happens next I do accept the possibility the belief that new creation is for all creation but, that does not mean that this life does not have an impact on our lives to come. I have no idea what that might look like.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: You seem to believe that the whole point of religion, and specifically Christianity, is to wind up in the good place. I'm an atheist remember, I don't believe a word of this stuff! I'm just reporting what the vast majority of Christians believe and what all the churches I've ever been in preach. You know, all that “Jesus saves”, heaven and hell, fire and brimstone stuff?
I suppose that is important It certainly seems so for every Christian and church but you and yours!
but IMHO that is not at all the main point of Christianity. Christianity is a calling on our lives to live lives based on love of the other, or the Golden Rule works fine. That's a rule not restricted to Christianity of course. In fact it's universal. The thing is yes, you don't need Christianity
So why waste all that time and effort praying and grovelling?
but, I know that in my pre-Christian days my priority was, (aside from my family which came first), promotion, getting an increase in pay, a better house, parties etc. That was what I got from the secular world. That's what you got from the world! The world you live in is predominantly Christian. They built that world. Nothing changed except you got older. I do find that as a Christian I'm less self focused, (got a long way to go though), than I had been. I am involved in projects with both my time and money that I wouldn't have been in without Christianity. You've no idea what you'd be doing if you hadn't been 'born again'. I volunteer for all sorts of charitable stuff now that the modern pressures of establishing a career and bringing up a family are largely behind me. As you seem to be focused on what happens next I do accept the possibility the belief that new creation is for all creation but, that does not mean that this life does not have an impact on our lives to come. I have no idea what that might look like. Yes, but like those before you, you're making it all up to suit what you want to be true. It's non-biblical and non-taught isn't it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Admin Director Posts: 13040 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Here's a random selection of symbols from Microsoft Word:
• None of them work, but neither do they create weird symbols. I'll have to wait for an actual example before I can take any action.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: nwr writes:
... May I recommend a book. Why I Left, Why I Stayed: Conversations on Christianity Between an Evangelical Father and His Humanist Son Tony did say something that I particularly relate to. He said on page 102: quote: What matters is that where they didn't have details, which was everywhere, they made things up. What that reveals about the nature of their God is that they constructed him themselves by making up stories that communicated the message they wanted people to accept about their God. This is what all people do who build new religions, whether it was 5000 years ago or today. There's never been any there there for any of them, but for some reason you believe that just this one religion that happens to be the one you believe in was special. The miraculous and/or incredible tales it tells were about something real and true. That you believe this tells us a lot about you and absolutely nothing about anything supernatural. --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy, I remember years ago when I made up the phrase, "Where we see Monsters, Science shows us Windmills. " You applauded it and told me my mind was singing, IIRC. You are a critical thinker bound by logic, reason, reality (as we know it), and objective evidence. I am aware of, yet never limited by these parameters. You would say that I engage in fanciful thinking, preferring what I want to happen versus what actually happens.
Consider Star Trek. Humans had put many of their racial differences, ethnic prejudices, and competition among nations behind them to form the United Federation of Planets, joining with a few allies and like-minded species (similar to humanoids) and having created an effective traveling incubator(a starship) to boldly go where no man has gone before. My point is this: In that series, the humans aboard that starship encountered numerous beings, creatures, and forces every bit as imagined (by the writers) as anything in any Bible Story. Sci-Fi buffs, in fact, would be more likely to believe those characters as real than they would Biblical stories of other gods and demonic manifestations. I, in contrast, (and based on my experience in life) would be much more likely to stick with the Biblical narrative in popular apologetic culture. Humans are far from ready to venture outside our world and explore. We have too much-unopened mail and baggage from within our own species...which will take us a hundred years to resolve fully.
Percy writes: This would make sense if there actually were no God. Otherwise it falls flat.
What matters is that where they didn't have details, which was everywhere, they made things up. What that reveals about the nature of their God is that they constructed him themselves by making up stories that communicated the message they wanted people to accept about their God. Percy writes: Are you saying that it is highly improbable that *any* are/were true? Or are you saying that it is unlikely that the one GDR and I happen to believe in itself highly unlikely. I suspect that this critically thinking generation is gullible enough to get fooled by a fake force that had evidence to support it and also told the masses everything their itching ears resonated with. There's never been any there for any of them, but for some reason you believe that just this one religion that happens to be the one you believe in was special. The miraculous and/or incredible tales it tells were about something real and true."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Tell it to Columbus. Humans are far from ready to venture outside our world and explore.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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GDR writes: You guys make my case. My case was that most of you use mockery, put downs, insults etc. as a form of debate. IMHO that is usually an indication of a weak position. When people treat baseless propositions as they deserve, that does not somehow grant them substance. Here's you: "There are fairies living under the elderberries." "That's dumb." "You make my case." --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Growing up does not mean rejecting the belief as if it is a made up fantasy. Growing up means seeing God(and Jesus as more than simply characters in a book.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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