Reply to: Message 15 by Raaven4 04-24-2002 3:02 PM
B F Skinner once stated something like: We're ... "beyond freedom and dignity". The 'Calvinist' of behavioral psychology, he believed we are governed by our observed environment like rats in the experimental maze. I would think that “mutationalists” would follow the same religion. I myself am a ‘Skinnerian’ on another level (‘non-environmental level’ if you will); I believe everyone has a supreme master he is enslaved to.
quote:Originally posted by Mister Pamboli: That the public may be influenced in the direction of determinism by talk of "gay genes" or "aggresive genes" is a indictment of science's greatest failing - the failure to communicate its methods and findings clearly.
I could not agree more. Oversimplistic, I was, sorry. My point is: 'Destiny' and 'Free Will' are extremely paradoxical topics.
I fully reject "gay genes" and such as the only criteria for "sin". For example, I myself am an identical twin (genetic clone). My twin is opposite in many "behaviors": He is a 'Zon' atheist/evolutionist (or so he states) while I am a 'born-again' Christian/creationist (so I state). He is an 'AA'-alcoholic, I only drink NyQuil (rarely). He has several wives (caucasion); I have one (oriental). I am a podiatrist and portrait artist, he is an engineer and sports-lover. I am a Red-neck and he is a Yankee. We were raised together like average twins. This seems to disprove "genetic sin" enough, that SIN is from the 'real' person.
Perhaps, the human genome and gene pool(s) only produce a mere carnal-man with affections and appetites whose apperceptions are extremely limited, yet somewhat beyond that of a dog or monkey. (This hypothesis needs development.) The 'natural' man is: Excellent, yet 'lustful', 'striving', 'violent', 'crafty', 'worldly', 'self-deceived', and destined for destruction. Sins occur at random and often go unnoticed, and appear 'written into' the genetic-code (as prenatal sin). But what makes one twin (like myself) go one way and one the other is not the "sin-gene" alone.
Note eukaryotic genes also change and collaborate with protein factors that are environmental in nature (at least I was told in genetics classes).
Moreover, one may percieve "Calvinistic" (Destiny) scriptures as compatible with "Arminian" (Free Will) scriptures: i.e., God is Sovereign but I am a morally responsible wretch requiring Salvation from my sin(s). No evolution of good behaviour is possible from within these genes as genes merely serve 'carnal 'minds' and affections (and other apperceptive entities within carnal man).
But a 'regenerated' man (that 'crucified-and-risen-with-Christ' type of man), usually with songs and melodies that are so odious to most mutationalists... is trampled upon in this 'almost-but-not-quite' 'scientific' forum. While most here are by nature eternally 'destined' to compulsively observe a pseudo-science sham of 'mutation'(?#!), I 'compulsively' study the science of a 'Christ-God crucified', because it is (without excuse) greatly inferred by observation in nature.
Thus, being 'TAKEN' by this topic, I 'CHOSE TO' speak of its excellency per se.
(Note the multi-tiered paradox(es), ... God bless and goodnight!)
QUOTEI think it would be interesting to see more of what you mean by the science of a 'Christ-God crucified'- could you expand on some aspects of this that relate to obvservations from nature?
HYPOTHESIS: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings). METHODS/MATERIALS: Observation of man, creation (space-time contiuum), creatures/life-forms. DATA: Severe and ongoing cosmological destructive events occurring in the space-time continuum: pedophiliacs, murderers, dogs vs. cats, nation against nation, sickness, crying, travailing and groaning amidst the creation, etc, etc.. Songs of ‘deliverance’ occur among humans; friendship and ‘praise’ postures, etc. A woman in child-bearing’s ‘hope’ is observed. Marks of destruction and ‘slow death’ all over the cosmos: a severely ‘battered’ moon, ‘Eroding’ systems, ‘Volcanic upheavals’, Lightning and Tornados, etc. The constant aging that goes on without cease. The constant ‘renewals’ that take place within creatures: ‘healings’, ‘loving’, ‘forgiveness’, peace, etc. RESULTS: Entropy is real. Cell deterioration/aging/mutation (negative as in metastasis, cancer, organ breakdown), and System degeneration takes place. The creature is ‘renewed’ with ‘positive’ events (physical and metaphysical), The creation is renewed: i.e, ‘seasons’, rains, etc. CONCLUSION: The whole creation groans in pain together until now (Rom. 8) reflects a creation that is ‘longing’ (hoping) for ‘restoration’ (reflecting faith in a Christ’s restoration commiserate with his sufferings).