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Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Data, Information, and all that.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DNAunion Inactive Member |
quote: quote: And yet you responded as if I were wrong!?!?
quote: Why are you addressing a statement I didn't make? Now, let’s take a look to see if uneven distribution can legitimately be taken to mean that something is not random. First, from Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary:
quote: and then
quote: Here’s another.
quote: And another that links nonrandom to uneven distribution
quote: and
quote: So if something’s distribution is far from being equal, it can correctly be said to be nonrandom. Thus, it can be correctly stated that genomes with hotspots — mutations that are clearly not evenly distributed throughout the genome - have mutations that are not truly random. But, by all means, let's not get bogged down with this! :-) [This message has been edited by DNAunion, 03-24-2004]
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Ooook! Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 340 From: London, UK Joined: |
You know the question now so why not answer it ? I know I it put it very clearly last time, so quit stalling. I'll ask it again if you want
Where do you think the information that was in the common ancestor cell(s) came from? That is the question you have not answered - notice the past tense. If you want to answer it this time, then great! If not then get back under your bridge and wait for a bigger billy goat.
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1424 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
quote:Anybody get the feeling DNAunion didn't get enough attention as a child? regardsEsteban "Losing Respect" Hambre
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
So if something’s distribution is far from being equal, it can correctly be said to be nonrandom. Thus, it can be correctly stated that genomes with hotspots — mutations that are clearly not evenly distributed throughout the genome - have mutations that are not truly random. Just curious: By extension, when I go to the Indian casino up the road and shoot craps, does the fact that the craps roll only happens at the craps table and never in the lobby or by the Bingo games - that is to say, not "equally spacially distributed" - mean that the craps roll is nonrandom? (Ah, but of course, you're talking about DNA and not casinos. Guess I might as well say "ah" in preparation for you to jump down my throat again. Prove me wrong, maybe?)
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DNAunion Inactive Member |
quote: quote: A "counter" so ridiculous it doesn't deserve my - or anyone else's - time. [This message has been edited by DNAunion, 03-24-2004]
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DNAunion Inactive Member |
quote: And you now know you were the cause of the miscommunication, so why not admit it?
quote: Why not the FIRST time?
quote: So why didn't you ask that originally? Too hard for you to think of? Too lazy? Oh, and I have a surprise for you when I do answer that question.
quote: That is the question you didn't ask when you pretended that you had.
quote: You finally got something right! Hooray!
quote: Okay, so what's my position on how the information got into the common ancestor...undirected evolution, of course. The LUCA is believed to have existed long after life originated: long after "random" mutation and natural selection were operating on living entities. Gee, did you ask the wrong question again! LOL!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
A "counter" so ridiculous it doesn't deserve my - or anyone else's - time. Am I to presume that you say that simply because you don't have an answer? Because it looks that way. Why else would a simple question be responded to with ridicule? How did I know that your response would be along those lines, I wonder?
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
quote: LUCA could be the same as the human mitochondrial Eve. Even though there were human females before the mitEve, that mito. line is still the common ancestor for all humans. In this context, it is easy to accept LUCA as the first common ancestor, but not the first life. Information due to evolutionary mechanisms would already be present. However, my question is this. Is there a baseline information content for a random sequence of DNA. To be more exact, if we came up with a random open reading frame, with an appropriate promoter, would we expect some kind of activity from the translated protein? Even though this random protein may not have enzymatic or catalytic properties, I would bet a hundred bucks we could find something that it bound to. Perhaps the baseline information content of any DNA sequence is its ability to be transcribed and translated. Perhaps the earliest DNA information was actually a promoter site and the lack of stop codons. Just a thought.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
program/data distintion is quite straight forward ....
data doesn't perform any operations, program does. I agree though -- any analogy can be useful so long as itis relevent.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: On a grammatical point it should read:'And yet you responded as if I was wrong' unless, of course, the possibility of you being wrongis zero. What's the matter, can't you write or something ... oh and I responded because you ARE wrong, just didn't wantto get sidetracked -- but couldn't leave it for you to think people agreed with you. quote: Didn't you write that? Everything else you posted is irrelevent because: ANY location on a DNA strand CAN suffer a mutation.Hotspots don't always suffer mutations. I have a suggestion for you, before you post any more quotationsconsider whether they add or subtract from the message you are giving, and whether they support your position or not.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1510 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I think Ooook asked your opinion on the origin or
information in THE common ancestor (i.e. the first ever 'This is definitely life' cell). So you are avoiding the question ... besides you KNOWwhat is being asked so failing to provide an answer (even if that answer is 'I don't want to say.') is reprehensible.
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Ooook! Member (Idle past 5846 days) Posts: 340 From: London, UK Joined: |
Ooooh! - So close, but still not there! I believe we can make it
there with just a little more effort. You said this:
Oh, and I have a surprise for you when I do answer that question. And at the big reveal gave me this:
Okay, so what's my position on how the information got into the common ancestor...undirected evolution, of course. The LUCA is believed to have existed long after life originated: long after "random" mutation and natural selection were operating on living entities. I wasn't at all surprised with this response, just disappointed. You keep on urging to use their eyes and read what you say, Iemplore you now to use your brain. Stop the pointless nitpicking and try and see what everybody is getting at. Use a bit of that logic that you claim others lack, and your knowledge of molecular biology to get the gist of my argument. You do have that knowledge don't you? You didn't just sit therewith a pile of biochemistry books and look in the indexes for 'information'? To make it easier for you I'll draw you a little picture. How'sthat? DNA/RNA ---------------------------------> DNA/RNA/Protein Somewhere along the dotted line, your much touted 'information' got into the DNA in order for it to encode for proteins. How do think that happened?
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DNAunion Inactive Member |
Your question was completely ridiculous: any rational and honest person knows that. You moved from the original topic to an analogy that didn't maintain correspondence to the original: you changed one or more key factors which makes the analogy invalid.
In fact, this is typical of you...you use strawmen against me, in just about every exchange between us (then you turn around and call me an asshole). You substitute your much weaker replacements, of your own conjuring, and then attack those substitutes, and in doing so pretend to have suceeded in knocking down my original. So Crashfrog, it's your argument - you have the burden of proof to show that it is legitimate...so go ahead. [This message has been edited by DNAunion, 03-25-2004]
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
. You moved from the original topic to an analogy that didn't maintain correspondence to what it was "modeling": you changed key factors. So explain how. What factors? My analogy demonstrates that when people use the word "random", they do so without reference to the spacial location of the event in question. You haven't even come close to defending your interpretation of random, yet.
It's your argument - you have the burden of proof to show that it is legitimate...so go ahead. Oh, please.
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DNAunion Inactive Member |
quote: quote: Not my job. You offered something ridiculous. You think it’s notdemonstrate that it’s not.
quote: You can’t read, can you. I have supported my position (I guess because some of the words have more than 4 letters you couldn't understand what was being said). And here’s more. I remembered one of the most anti-Creationist, hard core evolutionists — Richard Dawkins — saying that mutations weren’t technically random in some respects, but had sold off all of my books by him (and many others). So I used Google on Dawkins mutation not random and got this hit. I’m trusting that the person who quoted Dawkins did so legitimately.
quote: quote: As I said, there are reasons to consider mutations not to be random, even when they are not directed by intelligence. And, we shouldn't be getting bogged down in this anyway as the original complaint about my putting "random" in quotes is bogus and refuted.
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