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Author | Topic: 'Modeling' recent debates using chess | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: {chuckle} . . I basically had the same reaction to that self-serving analogy. Being fond of chess myself, it sounds like DNAunion went into the endgame down on material and was fortunate enough to squeak out a defensive stalemate by repetition posture. As to being analogous to debating positions, there are, of course, other ways in which this could be interpreted. Some might say, for instance, that he got himself backed into a corner and had to keep waffling to avoid being pinned down. Namaste' Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
Haven't been to the coffee house in a while. I'm surprised this has turned into an actual chess thread.
Hi Percy, The shortest mate that I'm aware of is: 1. f3. . .e5(or e6)2. g4. . .Qh4++ Black mates on the 2nd move. It has been a long while since I've messed with any chess puzzles but maybe someone will remember: Wasn't this known as the "Scholar's mate"? P.S. to DNAunion: Yes, I am aware that trading the rook for the knight in that position assures the stalemate. My point was that you had to have the opportunity for the double attack to begin with. Since Nf6 was obviously black's last move prior to your double attack on the knight & pawn with your rook, I would be interested to know what space this knight occupied prior to this move and if the move to f6 was a capturing move or just a move to a clear square. Those are the details that will make all the difference in the analysis. Namaste' Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
Hello DNAunion, etal,
Late tonight, but I believe I have found some interesting lines for the first game you illustrated and will post some tomorrow. Also, I had (at one time) gotten pretty well burnt-out on chess puzzles but your last one (with, perhaps, mate in 16) looks more interesting, so I think I will take a look at that one tomorrow as well. In the meantime, for those who enjoy interesting moves: Crushing move by Bobby Fischer in 1965 U.S. Championship tournament, for anyone who may enjoy finding it. White position: Kh1Qg6 Rg1 Be4 pawns on a2,b2,c3,f3,f5,g7,h4 Black position: Kg8Qc8 Rd8 Nh7 pawns on a6,b5,c4,f6,f4 White's (Fischer's) move. Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
Hello DNAunion, etal,
RE: Mate in 16. With White's crushing move, Black doesn't have a chance. Very impressive though, as it required perfect play on both sides, i.e. for White to retain the initiative, and for Black to hold out for 16 moves. White to move and mate White:King on h2 Queen on c4 Rooks on c8, f7 Bishop on c2 Knight on d6 Pawns on e4, g2, h4 Black:King on g6 Queen on a1 Rooks on a8, g4 Bishop on f6 Knights on e5, g8 Panws on g7, h5 The crushing move: Rxg7 Thus: Rxg7+....Bxg7 If black moves Kh6 then:Nf5++ If black moves Kxg7 then:Qxg8+........Kh6 Nf5++ Qf7+......Kh7 If black moves Kh6 then:Nf5+............Kh7 Qxg8+.........Kg6 Qxg7++ If black moves Nxf7 then:e5+.............Kh6 Nxf7++ Qxg8+....Kg6 If black moves Kh6 then:Nf5+............Kg6 Qxg7++ Qf7+.......Kh7 If black moves Nxf7 then:e5+.............Kh6 Nxf7++ If black moves Kh6 then:Nf5+............Kh7 Qxh5+.........Bh6 Qxh6++ Qxh5+.......Bh6Rc7+..........Rg7 Rxg7+........Kxg7 Nf5+...........Kg8 If black moves Kh7 or Kh8 then:Qxh6+........kg8 Qg7++ If black moves Kf8 then:Qxh6+........Ke8 Qe6+..........Kd8 Qe7+..........Kc8 Nd6+..........Kb8 Qb7++ Bb3+........Nf7Nxh6+......Kg7 If black moves Kf8 then Qxf7++If black moves Kh8 then: Nf5+...........Kg8 Qxf7+.........Kh8 Qh5++ Nf5+........Kf6 If black moves Kf6 then Qxf7++If black moves Kg8 then: Qxf7+..........Kh8 Qh5++ Qxf7+...........Ke5Qd5+........... Kf4 Qd2+............Ke5 Qd6+............Kxe4 Bc2++ Namaste' Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
Hello DNAunion,
RE: Stalemate game. I understand that you were playing a time restricted game whereas I am taking time for analysis. However, it is not your moves that I question. I don't know what level of computer program you were playing against (you said it was your son's), but I would not have made that Nf6 move allowing you the double attack and a sure stalemate. You suggested that the knight could not be protected by presenting this line: 1. ... h52. Rg5 Nf6 3. Rg6 Nd5 (if 3. ... Ng4 then 4. Rg5 again) 4. Rg5 Nf4+ 5. Kh1 followed by 6. Rxh5 = Yet, the "Rxh5=" part doesn't follow from the position. Black's knight is still on f4 protecting the pawn on h5. Rxh5 would win the pawn but hang the rook. Black (still with 2 minor pieces) would soon win the White pawn from the lone White king and ++ would then be by the numbers. The line I would play would be: 1. ..............h52. Rg5........Nf6 3. Rg6........Nd5 4. Rg5........Nf4+ 5. Kh1........Be5 From this position it would be (as you mentioned) a matter of not letting White trade the rook for the knight. The general strategy would be to keep the bishop next to the king while the knight roams free (being sure to avoid a skewer). Because of the difficulties involved, there would be a huge amount of jockeying for position. Again, the overall strategy would be to work the king/bishop pair as close as possible to the White pawn for a capture. Using this line and strategy, I managed to capture White's pawn, though (after a very long line) I have not yet found a way to get Black's pawn to the queening square. However, I have been playing this line against a computer program called "Chessmaster 7000" that is rated @ 2711. Disclaimer: Do understand that for this analysis, I am allowing myself to explore various move possiblities & not obligating myself to straight-forward move for move play. The point of fact is, most human opponents would not be able to play with the perfection of this program. Thus, rather than giving away the game to a stalemate with the Nf6 move (allowing the double attack), I would be more inclined to play the line I suggested above and give my opponent the opportunity to make a mistake. Namaste' Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: {chuckle}. . six of one and half a dozen of the other. My opponent played: 14. ... Ke5 Thus, my sequence was required. Namaste' Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: Oh, please. The "masterpiece" wasn't hard to solve. Once the (reasonaby apparent) Rxg7 move is determined, Black scarcely has any options. IOW, (as is apparent in the line I posted), in every case Black has only one move option that doesn't lead to checkmate in only 4-5 moves (often 1-3 moves). In fact, had the moves not been so apparent, I might have suspected that your computer invented this sequence. A more difficult game would have contained at least some human error. Your ego needs to chill out. Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: quote: Well, I was trying to be nice, but I don't see it as obvious at all. You were shoveling your guru crap and didn't even realize that you had just hung your own rook.
quote: Any half-way decent player wouldn't have been down on material against a computer that didn't have any better circuitry than to give away the game with ... Nf6.
quote: I had, momentarily, thought maybe I had been wrong about you. But now I begin to wonder if you even know what you're talking about. You were handed the stalemate on a silver platter in the game described in your OP. You remember your OP don't you? The one with all these pompous statements:
quote: I am through with you, sir. You are welcome to post yet another self-worshipping post as the last word. Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
First, I'm going to apologize for losing my temper. I take your accusations as slanderous. However, regardless of the provocation, controlling my temper is my responsibility to myself.
quote: The work was my own. The only advantage I had over you (in creating the puzzle) was that I knew going in that mate could be forced in 16 moves. The puzzle was not that difficult to figure out.
quote: A human oversight is what occurred in my analysis of your puzzle when I "overlooked" the fact that the Black king could also take e4 in move 14, thus allowing for two alternate final three move sequences to mate. You hanging your rook is more commonly called a blunder.
quote: As I stated before, it wasn't your moves I questioned. It was Black that gave away the game by allowing the double attack. According to your OP, Black was being played by your son's computer. Thus, the playing level of this computer (by design or operator preference) remains in question.
quote: Yes, you are correct. No stalemate occurred. But I didn't say it did. My initial statement was that you were able to reach:
quote: And you did put yourself into this defensive posture. IOW, by allowing the double attack, checkmate was no longer attainable for Black. It was stalemate or nothing. That Black chose to wander around the board for fifty moves rather than stalemate White's king does make the game a "draw" in the proper parlance. I would have just stalemated you and been done with it. Hence, I later referred to it as a "stalemate" game. If anyone takes a look at my profile, they will see that chess was listed as one of my interests when I joined this forum (interestingly, for someone supposedly so deeply into it, yours makes no mention). I have been interested in the game since I was a teenager (and I'm no youngster anymore). I was a long time member of the USCF and received Chess Life magazine for many years. I own and have studied many chess books written by such people as Yasser Seirawan, Reuben Fine, Lev Alburt, Jeremy Silman, etc. And, while I dislike organized tournaments, I belong to two chess clubs and regularly hold my own against players with ratings as high as 1700 - 1800. But if you really have some serious need to think that I still wouldn't know the technical definition of a stalemate, be my guest. As a general note to other readers: The above description of my interest in chess was necessary to dispel what I take to be slanderous remarks against my integrity, and is not intended as a bid to enter the "pissing" contest. It should be noted that before this necessity arose, my sole comment was that I was "fond of chess". And now, again, DNAunion, the work was my own. If this somehow presents a crisis for you, you're welcome to employ whatever rationalization makes you feel better. I have no further interest in your agenda. Amlodhi
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
Yes, I do conflate stalemate and draw. And I will probably do it again. To me a stalemate is a drawn contest, a deadlock where neither side can make headway.
For me it just doesn't make any difference whether it's perpetual check, insufficient material, draw by repetition or lone king can't move without moving into check (the precise usage). But to suggest that my loose usage of the term stalemate means I don't understand these precise situations after 35+ years of playing the game is just silly. So yes, in the proper parlance, the computer didn't "stalemate" you, though it could have easily enough. It opted for a "draw" instead. But that was hardly the point. The point was that when it allowed the double attack it gave up its only reasonable chance for a win and from that point on a stalemate or a draw was the best it could hope for. And my general use of the term "stalemate" doesn't change that point. If you are rated at the 2000+ level then you are certainly more proficient at the game than I. With that level of proficiency you should have no trouble understanding that the computer made a poor move. I may not be as good at chess as you are, but I'm good enough to see that. I'm also good enough to solve your puzzle and I don't appreciate being called a liar. I did the work. Get over it. Amlodhi
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