Hi - the genesis of the chat that has taken over the tail-end of another thread can be seen here:
http://
EvC Forum: Morality and Subjectivity -->
EvC Forum: Morality and Subjectivity
I writes:
I've said it before and I'll say it again - everyone we have here is generally pretty convinced of their position. I actually don't know very much about the position that Robin takes and I don't think than a desire to know more has to take place in the normal point-scoring manner we have around here. I think we could do with a few more threads where we just chat.
I am not interested in carrying this on as a debate - this is a dialogue and I am keen to try and keep it this way. It's an opportunity for a couple of us (I'd like Catholic scientist to carry on with us if he'd like as well) to talk out our positions and for others to consider how we got there. It does not require anyone to point out "you are wrong about X,y,z".
Belong is the start of the conversation that occured in the tailend of a previous thread
Would there be any objection from mod/admin from us carrying this on in the coffee shop or would you prefer it somewhere else?
Robin writes:
Nihilism (as I use the term, perhaps eccentrically) is a certain view about the human condition. Briefly, it can be summarized with the idea that human life has no "formal purpose." The formal purpose is the purpose for which something is made. The formal purpose of a hammer, for example, is to drive nails. You could use it for some other purpose, such as knocking someone in the head, but that would not be its formal purpose.
Human beings have no formal purpose, assuming no god. They were made by nature, and nature had nothing "in mind" when it made them since nature has no mind. We are just here, hanging about. Formally speaking, we are useless.
Catholic Scientist writes:
human life has no "formal purpose."
From a nihilistic POV, we aren't any different than the other animals. So this whole planet is pointless then? That's ghey.
Not only do I not agree with the idea, I really dislike it. We might as well all go kill ourselves as there's no point in us being here (other than maybe some of us like being here). It just seems to remove some of the flare of living when there's no point.
We are just here, hanging about. Formally speaking, we are useless.
Yeah, that's depressing. But try telling that to nature when we're ripping it a new asshole. Perhaps we have some use afterall. Nature's self destruct mechanism, perhaps?
Theistically, the higher purpose thing is rewarding. Adding purpose to your life, even if its all false, at least gives you something to live for, it gives you something to do. Otherwise, I'm working all day just waiting to die.
If I were to embrace nihilism, I think I'd have to go for hedonism. I'd just work all day so I could get drunk and fuck all night. But from a theistic POV, it isn't all that rewarding. It seems like there is some other reason I'm here. I like Jesus' teachings, it makes me happy.
Robin writes:
It's not necesarily negative that we have no formal purpose. It's just that, whether negative or positive, we don't have one. We make up purposes of our own, of course. Often they change. Someone's purpose at age 20 might be quite different from his purpose at age 35.
Using the hammer to knock someone in the head might be compared to our subjective or personal purposes. The only way we might have a formal purpose is if we were made by a being rather than nature. Some might say, "I was made by my parents, not nature." My response to that would be that our parents were the assembly line workers. The designer, Nature, is back in the office.
Ok - as I mentioned previously I'm not interested in any point-scoring or even challenging you on any particular point - so if the questions seem softball - they are intended to be. I'm just interested in the journey that you've been on.
Let me start at the start - have you ever being a believer? in a god? gods?
(by the way this is a chat so if you don't want to answer questions - just say "no comment" or the like) and we will move on.
charles writes:
No, never. I was raised by my Dad who never brought the subject up at all. I did go to midnight mass once with my Mom, but it was in Latin and I couldn't understand it. What I recall most were the pretty girls in the hats sitting just ahead of me. They were beauties.
charles writes:
So when do you think you first started to think in a serious manner "what's out there/what's not out there?"
I think I was about 13 or 14 - I was nominally christian but the more I read the book, the less it made sense to me (well besides as a story).
Robin writes:
I think when I went off to college, age 18. I got very interested in philosophy and almost majored in it, but I liked writing so much I went with Lit.
In my twenties, I called myself an "aesthete," but then I decided that sounded effeminate, remindful of Oscar Wilde or someone like that, so I changed it to "nihilist," which has a rugged masculine ring to it. But it's basically the same idea, in another form.
So I really haven't changed at all, in all that time. I'm 57.
catholic Scientist writes:
I didn't realize you posted for Charles, the whole ck when over my head. I'll let you guys chat this one out.
charles writes:
Well look - you'd round us out nicely - a believer, an atheist (or maybe I'm a agnostic - we can discuss it) and a nihilist.
So let me ask you the same - how do you come to your faith? has it always been there?
catholic scientist writes:
I was raised Catholic, grade school and high school.
Then I went to college and was an atheist.
Then I found faith in Jesus again.
That makes me a christian and since I was raised Catholic I figured I'd call myself that. I haven't been to church in a while though.
I'm one of those "cafeteria catholics" (from The DaVinci Code).
Charles to Robin writes:
Interesting - I notice that you identify yourself as a "tentative" nihilist - why are you tentative - is it because you think it's impossible for the human mind to know for certain or are you considering "other options"? such as christianity?
Charles to Catholic scientist writes:
Can I ask further - was it a sudden thing or did you came back to god over a period of time?
(as with Robin - please feel free to say "no comment" to any questions you don't want to answer).
Robin writes:
I don't know if it's impossible or not to know. I have a certain belief in Logic. (My attempts at logic have been treated with contempt on this board). But I keep thinking about it, trying to figure it out. Obviously, I don't know for sure. The apparent accidental nature of life leads to me believe that it's all accidental.
Edited by CK, : edit in content