Here is the back history.
Faith writes:
Jazz, since you are a Christian, don't you ever have doubts about what science says when it contradicts scripture?
Which I suppose is a question stemming from my "strange" hybrid position of both being a Christian and fervently rejecting, and activly attacking, Creationism and Biblical Literalism.
I responded:
Jazzns writes:
Sure. I battle with that all the time. I used to let it get to me. Like you, I came from a bit of a charasmatic background. I was baptized Penecostal although I never could get the whole speaking in tounges thing. I HURT me so bad that I was so open to God and he wouldn't give me the gift that was PROMISED. Then I realized that the charasmatics are mostly a sham. My faith was destroyed for awhile. Then I prayed one prayer to God in Jesus's name to help guide me to the truth whatever that may be. It was the most heartfelt prayer that I have ever prayed. I was begging for my eternal soul. It was the most important thing I have ever done. Since then I feel I have never been closer to God because I abandoned literalism.
Sometimes it is not just that science contradicts the Bible, it is because the BIBLE contradicts the Bible. This happened all the time in Bible study and when I would question it there would be this crazy off the wall explanation for why it wasn't REALLY a contradiction. As soon as that happened though, literalism was abandoned anyway. It just took me to many years to figure that out.
: where I identified my transformation from a Biblical Literalist to what I am today through my experiences in a charasmatic church, in particular the Pentecostals.
Faith writes:
Somehow God answered your prayer in terms of an abandonment of literalism? I don't understand how that happened. You don't really say how God answered you.
I guess you read how I also prayed when in a quandary about some charismatic beliefs, but the answer I got did not contradict a literal reading of the Bible at all. Incident after incident that had confused me was answered with the Biblical teaching that showed its falseness -- just about the opposite of what you say happened to you.
I do think it IS possible to abandon the Charasmatics without abandoning literalism. There are plenty of reasons including many Charasmatic movements that are fraudlent, abusive, exclusionary, etc. I just happened to examine both by involvement with the Charasmatics and Biblical Literalism at the same time.
Jazzns writes:
All I have to base my conclusion on is that I felt better about myself and about God after the fact. No longer did I have to perform mental contortions just to get the Bible to jive with both reality and itself.
I was pulled off the edge of abandonment by the realizations I had found. I also realized that unlike the Penecostals prescribe, the holy spirit DOES infill you without the seizures and babbling. One instance that was noteworthy for me was when I was visiting my Grandmothers old church. The rest of my family started up there as regulars and I went to see my mom give a lesson because it was a special week, childrens week. The lesson was not particularly inspiring but I felt my whole body become washed with a sense of joy and happiness just being there. It had nothing to do with my mom or the service in particular. I just cried in pure happiness. It was one step among many that I believe God has given to me to help along the right path.
I can only speak for my own experiences. As such, I believe that literalism is bankrupt.
This is where the interesting statment by Faith was given.
Faith writes:
Sounds to me like God reassured you that the Holy Spirit isn't tied to charismatic interpretations and you then went on to make the leap on your own that literalism, a whole other subject, was bankrupt, because you had mistakenly lumped it together with the charismatic interpretations.
It is a valid criticism for which I had to take a moment to examine. Did I just throw the baby out with the bathwater? After reflecting for a moment I don't believe that the path I took was invalid and I responded as such.
Jazzns writes:
I would argue that if you are going to be a true literalist that you are going to need to lean on much of what drives the charasmatics. Most other interpretations of the NT by other major denominations of Christianity take a MUCH MORE liberal and interpretive perspective of the Bible. If you care to talk about this in a new topic I would enjoy discussing this issue. Just let me know and I will create the topic or you could do it and I will join you.
For me, rejecting the charasmatics and Biblical literalism goes mostly hand in hand. Granted there are some reasons that the charasmatics are frauds apart that is seperate from the issue of Biblical literalism. The charasmatics are also not the only movement within Christianity that espouse literalism. It was two seperate steps that lead from one to the other. The abandonment of the Penecostals, and then the investigation of what true Biblical literalism was. I had to first abandon the church so that my mind was free to even look at the Bible in that way. I had to make that mental and spiritual change before I could even allow myself to go down that path. I think the same would have been true had it not been a charasmatic church but some other literalist church.
As long as the church is based upon literalism, I think it IS valid to notice that both the church and the dogma from which it is founded is bankrupt at the same time.
The bolded part of the quote being what I feel is the fodder for a good debate on this issue. I believe what I said there, that it is reasonable to notice that the church and the dogma are wrong at the same time. Faith abandoned the church, but kept some of the dogma. This is also valid as the Charasmatics do not have sole ownership of Biblical Literalism. My belief though is that the more you move away from a literalist interpretation that drives some of these wacko churches, the less "literal" you actually are. In fact, the moment you introduce rationalization in order to eliminate one of the many Biblical contradictions, you have abandoned TRUE literalism.
So, did I throw the baby out with the bathwater when I ditched both the Charasmatics and literalism?
Comparative Religions or Faith and Belief I feel would be appropriate places for this. I let the mod who looks at this decide which is more appropriate.
Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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