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Author Topic:   Age of the Universe for Theologian
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 1 of 6 (49788)
08-10-2003 6:08 PM


Carried over from biblical contradictions....
Did you ever stop to think that the Big Bang could have been God creating space from nothing?
Di you stop to think it wasn't?
Instantaneous creation would leave evidence very similar to an explosion.
Why? Wouldn't everything be in situ? Unsupported assertion.
Have you heard of helio-polomic rings?
I've heard of polonium halos.
Also, the Bible says that God expanded the heavens or stretched them out (Is.42:5, 45:12,51:13) which would account for the apparent age of the universe being in the billions.
Logical flaw. Appeal to anonymous authority.
"What would Jesus, Mark, John etc know about Genesis any more than you? They never knew who wrote it either, & are guilty of exactly the same Appeal to Anonymous Authority you are. Assuming they exist."
You can't be serious? THIS iS critical thinking? It sounds more like an opinion to me. First of all, Jesus IS GOd so HE knows ALL. He knows WHO wrote Genesis and what the content is.
Excellent, you will be able to provide independant IRREFUTABLE (just being equitable, it's what you require of me, or is there a double standard as regards valid evidence?) evidence that 1/ Jesus existed as a man (see below), & 2/ That he was the son of God/IS God.
As a critical thinker I know you must have supporting evidence, or were you not thinking critically at all & just making an a priori assumption that God exists?
I'm pretty sure an Omniscient being would know the author of a book.
Me too, no argument. All you have to do is show Jesus is that omnicient being & I'm blown away.
I have refuted your Fallacious argument objection by telling you MOSES wrote Genesis.
All you now need to do is provide independent, IRREFUTABLE evidence that Moses existed & was cheek to cheek with the creator, otherwise, the appeal to anonymous authority stands.
And you CAN'T be serious to doubt that Jesus ever lived? If you are, here are some sources that attest to Him being alive: Cornelius Tacitus(historian) C. 52-54 AD, Falvius Josephus 37AD, Tertullian, Thallus, Simon Greenleaf, Frank Morrison. How many do you need?
Because I'm NOT agreeing with you I'm NOT critically examining?
Can you provide the texts please?
BTW, Simon Greenleaf set out to disprove the resurrection and conclude that it is the most recorded even in all of history. How did Jesus rise from the dead if HE never lived?
The son of God never rose from the dead because he never existed. There were lot's of Jesu's in Israel, I see nothing that independantly shows him to be the son of God.
I see lot's of evidence of an old universe, & none for a young one.
Mark
------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."

Replies to this message:
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 Message 3 by Admin, posted 08-10-2003 6:56 PM mark24 has replied
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 2 of 6 (49789)
08-10-2003 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mark24
08-10-2003 6:08 PM


For the record, I have no real objection to the idea of a bloke called Jesus existing, it seems more likely an explanation than a committee inventing him, it's the "he was God" part that I have seen no evidence for.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mark24, posted 08-10-2003 6:08 PM mark24 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13044
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3 of 6 (49791)
08-10-2003 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mark24
08-10-2003 6:08 PM


Topic Drift Alert!
mark24 writes:
"What would Jesus, Mark, John etc know about Genesis any more than you? They never knew who wrote it either, & are guilty of exactly the same Appeal to Anonymous Authority you are. Assuming they exist."
You can't be serious? THIS iS critical thinking? It sounds more like an opinion to me. First of all, Jesus IS GOd so HE knows ALL. He knows WHO wrote Genesis and what the content is.
Excellent, you will be able to provide independant IRREFUTABLE (just being equitable, it's what you require of me, or is there a double standard as regards valid evidence?) evidence that 1/ Jesus existed as a man (see below), & 2/ That he was the son of God/IS God.
This has got to be a new record - topic drift in post #1!
Sorry, Mark, looks like you have to open another thread. I got your email, your posts in the Biblical Contradictions II thread were not the problematic ones.
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mark24, posted 08-10-2003 6:08 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 764 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 4 of 6 (49802)
08-10-2003 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mark24
08-10-2003 6:08 PM


Thanks, Mark, for firing up this thread - my procrastinating ways (and book 5 of Harry Potter) kept me from doing it myself. But I've got an item or two for Theologian63 to chew on, and this thread has about the correct title.
First, Theo said, over in message 229 of the "Biblical contradictions II" thread:
A body set in motion will continue in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. If a body is spinning clockwise and continues spinning in that direction and explodes all pieces from said body will ALSO spin clockwise. If the Big Bang is true, why do two of the nine planets spin the opposite way of the others?
Percy addressed some of the flaws in this old chestnut in post 244 of that same thread, but I'd like to review them and add a little more information.
1) As Percy pointed out, the Big Bang was nine billion years and at least two generations of stars prior to the condensation of the Solar System. Any rotation inherited from the BB might conceivably be seen in the rotation of superclusters of galaxies today, but early turbulent motion seems a far more likely source of any rotation below that scale - a clockwise eddy in one lump of gas gave rise to a clockwise rotating galaxy, but the rotation of the Solar System is due to a micro-eddy many years, and many collisions of gas clouds, later.
2) Three, not two, of the planets can bu sain to spin "backwards" or retrograde: Venus, Uranus, and Pluto. Uranus' retrograde rotation is just a matter of definition, really, as its spin axis is almost in its orbital plane. A fairly recent paper (Alexandre, et al., Nature, v 411, pp 767-770, 2001) concludes that a planet with an atmosphere as thick as Venus's can only end up with a few modes of rotation, half of them retrograde:
Venus rotates very slowly on its axis in a retrograde direction, opposite to that of most other bodies in the Solar System. To explain this peculiar observation, it has been generally believed that in the past its rotational axis was itself rotated to 180 as a result of core—mantle friction inside the planet, together with atmospheric tides. But such a change has to assume a high initial obliquity (the angle between the planet's equator and the plane of the orbital motion). Chaotic evolution, however, allows the spin axis to flip for a large set of initial conditions. Here we show that independent of uncertainties in the models, terrestrial planets with dense atmosphere like Venus can evolve into one of only four possible rotation states. Moreover, we find that most initial conditions will drive the planet towards the configuration at present seen at Venus, albeit through two very different evolutionary paths. The first is the generally accepted view whereby the spin axis flips direction. But we have also found that it is possible for Venus to begin with prograde rotation (the same direction as the other planets) yet then develop retrograde rotation while the obliquity goes towards zero: a rotation of the spin axis is not necessary in this case.
This trend to only a few states is due to an interaction of tides in the atmosphere and internal (core-mantle) friction.
In the cases of Uranus and Pluto, it is entirely plausible that each was formed by collisions between large planetesimals. Nearly any spin can result from a collision of near-equal bodies that "stick" - orbital angular momentum is a larger quantity than spin angular momentum anyway, and the conditions of collision determine direction and speed of spin in the final object.
Billiards players are very familiar with a variation on this phenomenon - but if the balls stick, you need to find a cleaner pool hall.
3) Age of the Universe. Another paper, Herrnstein, et al., Nature, v 400, pp 539-541, (1999), uses geometry to measure a distance of 23.5 million light years to the galaxy NGC 4258 (or Messier 106):
The accurate measurement of extragalactic distances is a central challenge of modern astronomy, being required for any realistic description of the age, geometry and fate of the Universe. The measurement of relative extragalactic distances has become fairly routine, but estimates of absolute distances are rare. In the vicinity of the Sun, direct geometric techniques for obtaining absolute distances, such as orbital parallax, are feasible, but such techniques have hitherto been difficult to apply to other galaxies. As a result, uncertainties in the expansion rate and age of the Universe are dominated by uncertainties in the absolute calibration of the extragalactic distance ladder. Here we report a geometric distance to the galaxy NGC4258, which we infer from the direct measurement of orbital motions in a disk of gas surrounding the nucleus of this galaxy. The distance so determined7.2 0.3 Mpcis the most precise absolute extragalactic distance yet measured, and is likely to play an important role in future distance-scale calibrations.
A distance like that means that the light from that galaxy took 23,500,000 years, plus or minus a million, to get here. A 6000 year old Earth would allow for that, I guess, but not if the stars were created on the fourth day of those 6000.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mark24, posted 08-10-2003 6:08 PM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 5 of 6 (50106)
08-12-2003 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Admin
08-10-2003 6:56 PM


Re: Topic Drift Alert!
Percy,
This has got to be a new record - topic drift in post #1!
It's not off topic. Theo is claiming biblical evidence that the age of the universe is young, when he fails to support that Moses spoke to God, & that Jesus IS God, his argument fails on logical grounds, all he is then left with is the stuff that leads us to conclude the universe is billions of years old. Bear with me .
Mark
------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Admin, posted 08-10-2003 6:56 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Admin, posted 08-12-2003 8:47 AM mark24 has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13044
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 6 (50110)
08-12-2003 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by mark24
08-12-2003 8:11 AM


Re: Topic Drift Alert!
Hi Mark,
It's not off topic. Theo is claiming biblical evidence that the age of the universe is young, when he fails to support that Moses spoke to God, & that Jesus IS God, his argument fails on logical grounds, all he is then left with is the stuff that leads us to conclude the universe is billions of years old.
Whenever Peter Borger's name comes up I always get the feeling that it is not well understood why he was suspended. It was for turning every thread he entered into a discussion of GUToB and then refusing to follow moderator requests to confine discussion of GUToB to the thread designated for that purpose.
For my own part, I'm interested in the possibility that Jesus may not have actually lived in the 1st century, and I could turn every thread that mentions Jesus into a discussion of my favorite topic simply by mentioning this. Not a good thing.
So Theologian will not be permitted to turn every thread he enters into a debate about the Bible. If he feels the only way to support his position on a scientific topic is through Biblical accounts, whose validity and/or pertinence is then invariably challenged, then he must make that point in one of the theological forums like Faith and Belief or The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy, or perhaps in Miscellaneous Topics, Is It Science? or even Free For All. Once he successfully makes that point then discussion can return to the original thread. The science forums are reserved for discussing scientific issues.
I'm not sure Theologian is going to return. He was hot and heavy on Sunday, but his last post sounded like a sign-off. Even if he did return I'm not sure he would last much longer here - he didn't seem much interested in following board policy or moderator requests.
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
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