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Author Topic:   Natural Selection
The General
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 33 (49317)
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


PART II: NATURAL SELECTION
Natural Selection attempts to explain the process in nature in which the organisms best suited to their environment are the ones most likely to survive. The process is also known as the survival of the fittest. Charles Darwin first explained Natural Selection in detail. Darwin believed that all plants and animals evolved (developed gradually) from a few common ancestors by means of natural selection.
The theory of natural selection comes from the variations that exist even among the most closely related individuals. In almost all cases, no two members of a species are exactly alike. This is because; each individual has a unique combination of traits such as size, color and ability to withstand cold. Darwin taught that most of these traits are inherited. He also stated that plants and animals produce many offspring, some of which will not survive to reproduce. Darwin believed that the process of natural selection determines which members of a species will die prematurely and which ones will survive to reproduce. For this reason, he believed that all organisms were always in a state of competition. This is because of the very limited supply of food, water and other necessities of life, for all of the living organisms produced. These organisms also would have to struggle against either being devoured by their prey, or facing the dangers of weather. Darwin wrote that in any environment some members of a species have combinations of traits that will help them in the struggle for life. Others have traits that put them in a huge disadvantage. The organisms with the favorable traits are the ones most likely to survive, reproduce and pass on their traits to their offspring. The organisms less able to compete, are likely to die prematurely and so produce no or inferior offspring. Therefore, so the favorable trait will survive and the unfavorable ones will eventually die out.
The environment plays an important part in this competition also. If the environment changes, different traits and combinations and combinations become favorable to survival, and the overall character of a species will change. In this way, explains Darwin, a species adapts to its environment to avoid extinction. If two species live in different environments, chances are they will develop differently. Moreover, eventually, they may differ so much that they will have become two separate species. Once this occurred, taught Darwin, all species would evolve.
B. TO SUMMARIZE A SUMMARY
Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection should be divided into three related propositions. This first point is that new species have appeared during the long coarse of the earth’s history by a natural process that he called descent with modification. The second point is that this evolutionary process can be extended to account for all the diversity of life. This is because all living things descended from a very small number of common ancestors, or even one single microscopic ancestor. (Or at least this is what Darwin taught). Point three is this, and this is what is most distinctive to Darwinism: that this vast process was guided by natural selection (or survival of the fittest) and that natural selection is so effective a guiding force that it can accomplish biological creations, that in the previous times people had though to give credit to the hand of a
creator.
C. SOME PROBLEMS WITH THE SUMMARY
1.New species have appeared during the long coarse of the Earth’s history by a natural process called descent with modification.
New species? Descent with modifications? When have we ever observed this? A honest answer would be never. Yet, Charles Darwin and Jean Baptiste De Lamarck point to the supposed example the giraffe would provide. They both taught that the giraffe was a relatively new species. Both believed that the story of the giraffe’s origins began on the African prairies long ago. (Neither stated when.) Due to a prolonged drought, the prairies dried up. Not all was lost though because there was some green leaves high up in the trees. Therefore, these animals, which would later be called the giraffe, began stretching their necks to reach the leaves. Because of this stretching, their neck grew longer.
(Now if one worked hard enough and long enough, one may be able to add a little bit to their height. People used to do that to get into the army or special services where there were height requirements).
The problem is that the offspring of these stretched parents would have necks just as small as those from the non-stretched parents. The longer neck could not be passed on. Darwin did not know much about the mechanism of heredity though. Darwin believed in pangenesis. Pangenesis is an abandoned theory that states that each cell of the body throws off very minute particles into the blood, which circulate freely and will undergo division and eventually collect in the reproductive cells. Once there, each part of the body is represented in the germ cell through these particles that were regarded as the units of heredity transmission. Of coarse, Gregor Mandel’s work would later disprove this. But it does help us understand what Darwin believed. He believed that at reproduction each organ would produce pangenes that would collect in the blood and flow to the reproductive organs that would cause the offspring to have longer necks. The idea of pangenesis is not accepted today. I have never met a person who believes in this theory. If the example of the giraffe is hard to follow, allow me to provide one or two more. If I believed in pangenesis, this is what I would believe: If I lost my entire arm in a farming accident, then got married to a woman who had both of her arms, there is a decent chance that some of our kids will be born without arms. Another is that if I use my brain a lot my kids will likely be born with larger than average heads. This is pangenesis and it is outrageously amusing. The problem is Darwin did no use the theory as a joke. Instead, he used pangenesis to explain how a new creature is formed.
I do not mean to make fun, because I know that back then, the people did not have as much technology as we have know. I only hope that one hundred fifty years from now, people will be as amused with some of the things that we believe in as I am with how many believed in pangenesis. Evolutionists will not admit it, but it is quite likely that the giraffe always had a longer than normal neck.
2. The evolutionist process can be extended to account for all the diversity of life because all living things descended from a very small number of ancestors; perhaps even one single microscopic Ancestor.
The creationist believes that all human beings, if they had a complete genealogy, could trace back and all would find that they come from the same man and woman. These common ancestors for all humans are named Adam and Eve. The creationist would tell you that all species come from their own species. To make this easier to understand; a pig in the beginning was not a horse, but a pig. Just as a human was not a pig in the beginning (though some may act like them) but was a human. Yet this belief that the creationists hold dear, runs counter to one of the most popular evolutionary beliefs that says that all living things come from one single microscopic ancestor. (I have already shown in Part I, that the evolutionists are mistaken on this one).
However, I want to stay on this one for a few more minutes. I would like to retell of an incident once that I witnessed during a debate between an evolutionist and a creationist. I do not have the script in front of me so I have to go by memory. Trying to make a point the evolutionist said, Look at all the different types of dogs that we have. He named a few and then went on, Are you trying to tell me that of the hundreds of different breeds of dogs all descended from the same to dogs way back when? Do you honestly believe that two dogs, millions of years ago could be responsible for all the dogs we have now? The creationist responded, Yes. It would seem quite reasonable to assume that all of the different breeds of dogs came from just two dogs thousands of years ago. The evolutionist, Reasonable? How can you say that? To answer the creationist said, By comparing my belief to yours. I think dogs came from other dogs who came from other dogs, but you are trying to tell me that dogs, humans, vegetation and all other living organisms hundreds of billions of years ago from holes in the ground that contained a soup-like substance.
I hesitate to ask, but which view appears more reasonable?
3. Natural Selection (Survival of the Fittest) is so effective a guiding force that it can accomplish so spectacular a biological creation that in the ancient times people thought to credit the hand of a creator.
First, part of natural selection does occur and in many ways, it does have an effect in maintaining the genetic fitness of a population. For example, infants born with severe defects will not survive to maturity without expensive medical care. Quite obviously, creatures that do not survive to reproduce will not leave behind any weak offspring. Yes, this is obvious, but Darwin asserts much more. Darwin claims that this guiding force, natural selection, (that kills off the weak), is so powerful that it can begin with a bacteria cell and gradually craft its descendants over billions of years to produce trees, flowers, ants, humans, and every other living organism. At this point, the creationist must disagree. They may also ask, how evolutionists make the jump from the strong surviving and the weak dying to a bacteria cell, over billions of years creating all that is in the world. Evolutionists do not care to explain how they draw the two together, but they do attempt to explain the more controversial opinion that all came from a bacteria cell. To explain this they point to mutations and artificial selection.
1.Mutations
Mutations are randomly occurring genetic changes which are almost always harmful especially when they produce effects in an organism that are large enough to be visible. Occasionally, they do slightly improve an organism’s ability to survive and reproduce. Organisms generally produce more organisms than can survive to maturity, and so offspring that possess an advantage of this kind can be expected to produce more descendants themselves than less advantaged members of the society would. As this type of survival continues, the traits eventually spread through the species and it becomes the basis for further improvements in succeeding generations. Given enough time, and enough mutations of the right sort, enormously complex organs and patterns of adaptive behavior can eventually produce tiny steps ahead without any pre-existing intelligence.
Therefore, from the mutations a bacterium could form into a human, a tree, or a rat. Evolutionists have tried to say that, and continue to do so, yet Darwin was never able to point to any example of this natural selection in action. Therefore, he had to rely heavily on an argument by analogy. The analogy was artificial selection.
2.Artificial Selection
Unfortunately for Darwinists, this analogy (which attempted to show that natural selection and artificial selection were the same) is terribly misleading. It is misleading because in artificial selection the plant and animal breeders enjoy the intelligence and specialized knowledge to select their breeding stock and to protect their changes from natural dangers. Yet, Darwinist natural selection seeks to establish that purposeless natural process can substitute for intelligent design. For this reason, as well as many others, artificial and natural selections are fundamentally different. In addition, artificial selection shows that there are definite limits to the amount of variation that even the most highly skilled breeder can achieve. The breeding of domesticated animals has produced no new species. Interestingly, the fact that breeding can create no new species shows that artificial selection provides powerful testimony against Darwin’s natural selection.
As an example, the reason dogs do not become as large as elephants, much less change into elephants, is not that we have not been breeding long enough. Instead, it is because dogs do not have the genetic capacity for that degree of change, and they stop growing when their genetic limit is reached.
However, Darwinists disagree with this genetic capacity limit. They point to their experiments with laboratory fruit flies. Not surprisingly to the creationist, these fruit flies have never produced anything but fruit flies, and then only sometimes with the slightest change in characteristics. (This is not enough to convince me that a bacteria cell can create all the living organisms on earth). These fruit flies have never produced a more complex species, let alone a genus or family. So while the Darwinists point to these experiments with pride, I must ask, how is this supposed to convince the creationist or I of anything?
Darwinists love to talk about new species. The fact that we have never seen any does not seem to bother them. When questioned they attribute, to their inability to find evidence, it to a lack of time. The time defense must be taken into account, but the greater time available to nature may be counterbalanced by the power of an intelligent purpose, which is brought out in artificial selection. To go back to the fruit fly experiments, while bringing time into the question, French zoologist Pierre Grasse has this to say, The fruit fly, the famous pet of geneticists, whose geographical, biotropical, urban, and rural genotype are now known inside out, seems not to have changed since even the remotest times.
Therefore, nature has had plenty of time, but it just has not been doing what the experiments have been doing. Lack of time would be a reasonable excuse, if there were no other known factor limiting the change that is produced by selection, but the fact is, selective change is limited by the inherent variability in the gene pool. After a number of generations, the capacity for change runs out. Conceivable, it is possible that the variations could be renewed by mutation, but whether (or how often) this happens is unknown.
Darwin’s analogy to artificial selection is misleading. There is no evidence that any new species have been created by either natural of artificial selection. Also, and this has already been stated, the two types of selections are fundamentally different because one gives credit to a designer and the other seeks to show purposelessness.
D. PROVE IT!
Today most evolutionists would insist that Darwin's Natural Selection is a scientific hypothesis that has been so thoroughly tested and confirmed that any reasonable person should accept it. The hypothesis being that natural selection is an innovative evolutionary process capable of producing new kinds or organisms and organs.
The evolutionist points to the following as evidence of their belief;
1.Bacteria usually develop resistance to antibiotics, and insects who have become resistant to insecticides, because of the differences in the survival of the mutant forms that have the advantage of resistance.
2.After a severe storm in Massachusetts, in 1898, there were hundreds of birds left dead. Someone brought in 136 exhausted birds to a scientist thinking that they would have care shown towards them. The scientist killed the surviving birds so that he could measure their skeletons. He found that among the male sparrows, the larger birds had survived more frequently than the small birds.
3.A drought on the Galapagos Island in 1977 caused a shortage of the small seed on which the finches feed. As a result, these birds had to eat larger seeds, which normally they would have ignored. After one generation, there had been so much death among the smaller birds (who could not easily eat the seed) that the average size of the bird and of their beak went noticeably up.
4. The allele (genetic state) responsible for sickle cell amenia in the African population is also associated with a trait that confers resistance to malaria. Individuals very free of the sickle-celled allele suffered high mortality from malaria, and those who inherited this allele from both parents usually die from amenia.
5.Mice populations have been observed to cease reproducing and become extinct when they are temporarily flooded by the spread of a gene that causes sterility in males.
6. When trees darkened by industrial smoke, dark colored moths became abundant because predators had difficulty seeing them against the trees. When the trees became lighter again, because of less air pollution, the lighter colored moths again had the advantage.
If these six examples are the best observational evidence of natural selection, one who accepts creationism can conclude two things.
First, there is no reason to doubt that peculiar circumstances can sometimes favor drug-resistant bacteria, or large birds rather that small birds, or dark colored moths instead of light ones. In these cases, the population of drug-susceptible bacteria, small birds and light colored moths may become reduced for a period.
Point two is this: None of these proofs provide any pervasive reason for believing that natural selection can produce new species, new organs, or other major changes, or even permanent minor changes.
Pieree Grasse was unimpressed by these proofs given. He stated, "The evolution in action believed by Huxley (who was Darwin's "bulldog") and other biologists is simply the observation of demographic facts, local fluctuations of genotypes and geographical distributions. Often the species concerned have remained practically unchanged for hundreds of centuries. Fluctuation as a result of circumstances, with prior modification of the genome, does not imply evolution, and we have tangible proof of this in many pan chronic species (living fossils that remain unchanged for millions of years)..."
Why do people, including the experts think that evidence of local fluctuation confirms the hypothesis that natural selection has the capacity to work engineering marvels, or to construct the wonder of the wing or eye? Everyone who studies evolution knows that the peppered moth experiments are the classic demonstration of the power of natural selection. Yet, these moths have nothing to do with the origin of species, or even in any variety, because dark and white moths are already present before the experiments.
Only the ratios from on e variety of the moth changed. How can intelligent people have been so gullible as to imagine that these peppered moths in any way support the ambitious claims of Charles Darwin.
The truth is if I knew the answer I would not have asked.
Yet, many look upon natural selection as a philosophical necessity. They may ask, "If not natural selection then what is your alternative?"
I will answer this question in a Part to come. I hate to end on this note but I have finished saying what I needed to say. This has been a difficult part to put together, yet I do think it will shed some light on natural selection as taught by Charles Darwin.

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 33 (49318)
08-08-2003 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


I note that this is the second time "The General" has posted a "part 2" when no "part 1" is in evidence.
I also note that the autor if this essay has not bothered to find out much about the subjext he is talking about. This would explain why much of the evidence for evolution is ignore, despite being highly relevant.
To note some of the problems:
1) It is assumed that if the entirity of a process is not observed it cannot happen, no matter how good the evidence that it has happened and continues to happen. The formation of a new species typically takes significantly greater than a human lifetime - even in fast-breedign species. We have observations of natural selection in action, we have examples where new species have come close to forming but the process is not complete (e.g. the salamander ensatina). And we have a lot of evidence that species are related by common descent. We cannot ignore this evidence
2) THe reference to "pangenesis" badly misrepresents evolution. This misrepresentation cannot be the result of pure ignorance - it must either be a major error or an intentional falsehood. Mendelian genetics is so pervasive and pangenesis so obscure that it is not plausible that anyone would honestly beleive that modern evolutionary scientists - or even laymen - would believe in pangenesis. Mendeleian genetics was incorporated into evolutionary theory decades ago - that is what the "new-Darwinian theory" is, and in fact it works far better than pangenesis, solving a serious problem that Darwin could see no answer to. Yet the whole section on giraffe evolution assumes that evolution rejects Mendelian genetics.
3) The story about the debate fails to even record what point the unnamed evolutionist was trying to make. There are other reasons to reject this point as insignificant but as it is presented we are not in a position to judge wh had the most reasonable viewpoint.
4) The majority of mutations are in fact neutral - having no significant effect (many are "silent" having no effect at all). And while reconstructing the full evolutionary history of even one modern species is obviously a taks to large, and involving too mcuh speculation to cover the inevtiable gaps in our knowledge to be practical this in no way refutes the evidence for common descent. Indeed the essay seems to deliberately avoid this subject - giving the misleading impressions that common descent is derived from natural selection. The truth is the reverse - common descent was discovered first, and natural selection was introduced to explain HOW common descent could occur.
5) The claim that artifical selection is misleading misses much of the point. Artificial selection does show us how much variation there is - or can be since the variation in most such species has been increased by mutations. It also demonstrates that selective forces can affect the physical characteristics. The differences explain why artificial selection is so much faster - until it hits the limits of the variation present and has to wait for useful mutations - and why it is so rarely connected with speciation. The implication that the limits found by breeders represent hard limits that cannot be crossed is false - some may be, but others may be simply a limit on the variation currently in the gene pool, and could be crossed if the correct mutations turned up.
The author clearly needs to spend more time on research - he needs to know the arguments for the posiiton he is attempting to refute, more time thinking about which points are relevant (the absence of any mention of the evidence for common descent is a major omission) and more time editing (omitting the "debate" anecdote would only be an improvement). The author must be prepared to spend significantly more time and effort to produce somethign worthwhile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The General, posted 08-08-2003 2:49 AM The General has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 3 of 33 (49323)
08-08-2003 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


quote:
New species? Descent with modifications? When have we ever observed this?
Descent with modification has been observed time and time again
both in the lab and in life. Mutations happen, they have
been observed.
New species is harder for reasons not only mentioned in post 2, but
because the definition of species is so (to quote Quetzal) squidgy.
See the threads on that subject if you want more detail -- or,
here's a thought, look it up.
Not seeing something is hardly evidence against it though.
I don't need to have seen the rifle to know that someone shot
JFK -- I saw the effect, some of the evidence (second hand
admittedly) and concluded that someone must have used a rifle.
Doesn't mean that I am absolutely right -- but the evidence
supports the conclusion.
quote:
the giraffe, began stretching their necks to reach the leaves. Because of this stretching, their neck grew longer.
LeMArkc may well have believed this -- Darwin didn't and it's not
part of Darwinian evolution.
A Darwinian explanation would be that there is a heritable trait
that affects neck lenght, and that some condition existed
whereby the chance of survival to reproduce was enhanced by
having a longer neck (and supporting constitional features).
More with longer necks were born in each subsequent generation,
to the extent that the genetype responsible for shorter necks
disapeared entirely.
This is hard to proove, but logical. Natural selection in other
situations HAS been observed ... the above is an NS explanation
for how it might have happened. It is completely consistent
with the theory and so does not refute the theory.
We cannot proove anything, but we can disproove things given
sufficient contrary evidence.
quote:
These common ancestors for all humans are named Adam and Eve.
But our closest common ancestor from the creationist PoV would
be Noah and his wife.
quote:
(I have already shown in Part I, that the evolutionists are mistaken on this one).
Where IS part I?
quote:
I hesitate to ask, but which view appears more reasonable?
So you base your disavowel of evolution on incredulity then?
Modern dogs come from other, previous generations of dogs.
No evolutionist would tell you different. The creationist you
mention was using a common tactic of introducing a completely
different argument when faced with one that could not be answered.
There are, I assume, genes which are different between different
breeds of dogs. Since we can only have two variants of a gene
per individual, if there are more than four variants of any
one gene then descent from a single couple is impossible. Or
do you accept beneficial mutations?
Perhaps some of the geneticists could help here.
quote:
They may also ask, how evolutionists make the jump from the strong surviving and the weak dying to a bacteria cell, over billions of years creating all that is in the world. Evolutionists do not care to explain how they draw the two together, but they do attempt to explain the more controversial opinion that all came from a bacteria cell. To explain this they point to mutations and artificial selection.
It's not about 'weak' and 'strong'. It's about being 'better able
to survive and/or reproduce'
quote:
Darwin was never able to point to any example of this
That would be because it takes much longer than a single lifetime.
We didn't evolve from bacteria anyhow. Bacteria, like us, have been
evolving for billions of years. We do not know the nature of
the ultimate common ancestor (if there is only One).
quote:
Yet, Darwinist natural selection seeks to establish that purposeless natural process can substitute for intelligent design
And this is borne out by evolutionary algorithms that design
electrical circuits that humans cannot really fathom, or that
work in unexpected ways.
The 'intelligent intervention' that you mention in artificial
selection is being used, by you, to mislead.
All that is being applied is a 'selection criterion' and whether
that is chosen by a person, or imposed by the environment is
irrelevent.
If some relationhip between an organism and it's environment
causes a differential reproductive output between variants
one will become the dominant feature.
quote:
D. PROVE IT!
That's not the way science works -- you have to disproove it,
not the other way around.
So far you have failed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The General, posted 08-08-2003 2:49 AM The General has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 4 of 33 (49332)
08-08-2003 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


quote:
New species? Descent with modifications? When have we ever observed this? A honest answer would be never.
An honest answer from you would be that you have not bothered to actually inform yourself as to what has been learned since Darwin..
Schliewen UK, Tautz D, Paabo S. Related Articles, Links
Sympatric speciation suggested by monophyly of crater lake cichlids.
Nature. 1994 Apr 14;368(6472):629-32.
Savolainen R, Vepsalainen K. Related Articles, Links
Sympatric speciation through intraspecific social parasitism.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Jun 10;100(12):7169-74. Epub 2003 May 09.
Jeffrey S. Levinton, E. Suatoni, William Wallace, Ruth Junkins, Brendan Kelaher, and Bengt J. Allen
Rapid loss of genetically based resistance to metals after the cleanup of a Superfund site
PNAS published August 6, 2003, 10.1073/pnas.1731446100 ( Ecology )
As to pangenesis and Darwin's lack of knowledge about how information is transferred from one generation to the next...I fail to see how this is at all relevant unless you believe that modern science still accepts pangenesis
quote:
The creationist believes that all human beings, if they had a complete genealogy, could trace back and all would find that they come from the same man and woman. These common ancestors for all humans are named Adam and Eve. The creationist would tell you that all species come from their own species. To make this easier to understand; a pig in the beginning was not a horse, but a pig. Just as a human was not a pig in the beginning (though some may act like them) but was a human. Yet this belief that the creationists hold dear, runs counter to one of the most popular evolutionary beliefs that says that all living things come from one single microscopic ancestor. (I have already shown in Part I, that the evolutionists are mistaken on this one).
First, there is no evidence for the required genetic bottlenecks that would indicate that we originated from a single breeding pair. There is no concurrent bottleneck for animals either....so that deals right their with the creation myth...
Second, you have presented a cartoonish strawman arguemment against evolution...no evolutionary biologist would claim that a horse came from a pig either...only creationists believe such nonesense...
However, you do bring up a good point..a creationist would tell you how it happened and provide no evidence to support it...a biologist would propose a tentative hypothesis and accumulate evidence and test the hypothesis which if it survived such scrutiny would become a theory but would remain under scrutiny...you also outed yourself in this section as not understanding the difference between abiogenesis and evolution...but that was to be expected.
quote:
Evolutionists do not care to explain how they draw the two together, but they do attempt to explain the more controversial opinion that all came from a bacteria cell. To explain this they point to mutations and artificial selection.
And yet another mischaracterization of evolution...natural selection as a deliberate crafting and designing force? Only the intelligent design bozos advocate this....and evoltionary biology does bother to explain the phenomenon you describe i.e. the frequency of alleles in a population vary over time due to selection and genetic drift...those alleles are generated by mutation...pretty simple stuff really.
quote:
Mutations are randomly occurring genetic changes which are almost always harmful especially when they produce effects in an organism that are large enough to be visible.
Bzzzz wrong...mutations are almost always neutral having no effect on the organism or slighly deleterious if landing in a gene....
quote:
Therefore, from the mutations a bacterium could form into a human, a tree, or a rat. Evolutionists have tried to say that, and continue to do so, yet Darwin was never able to point to any example of this natural selection in action. Therefore, he had to rely heavily on an argument by analogy. The analogy was artificial selection.
Bzzzz wrong again...bacteria do not become trees or rats or whatever..they share a common ancestor which is not the same thing...really do you creationists lack conviction in your beliefs such that you can only argue by mischaracterizing evolution in arguements..sheesh...you must really have doubts about your religious myths...as to Darwin...he used artificial selection as an example..or course many more examples have come up since the over 150 years since Darwin that you have ignored.
and here comes another strawman idiocy
quote:
As an example, the reason dogs do not become as large as elephants, much less change into elephants, is not that we have not been breeding long enough. Instead, it is because dogs do not have the genetic capacity for that degree of change, and they stop growing when their genetic limit is reached.
LOL!!! again the dogs becoming elephants...you creationsts sure have good imaginations....to bad you don't have a proper science education to couple with it....
Hmmm British bulldogs normally require C sections to be born...I wonder if this limitation would be bit of a SPECIES barrier with other dogs? In addition most domesticated animals would fail in competition with their undomesticated counterparts..only by human intervention do these things even survive...Darwin only pointed out that even over short periods, artificial selection can alter the phenotype drastically...duh!
quote:
Instead, it is because dogs do not have the genetic capacity for that degree of change, and they stop growing when their genetic limit is reached.
However, Darwinists disagree with this genetic capacity limit.
Thats a new one...I have been a geneticist for 12 years...could you show me the peer reviewed studies showing the limit to genetic capacity of dogs? I am eagerly awaiting this ground breaking study that must have gotten buried somewhere in fantasy land.
Speciation observed and even explained..
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Apr 29;100(9):5302-7. Epub 2003 Apr 14. Related Articles, Links
A rapidly evolving MYB-related protein causes species isolation in Drosophila.
Barbash DA, Siino DF, Tarone AM, Roote J.
Department of Genetics, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB2 3EH, United Kingdom. dabarash@ucdavis.edu
Matings among different species of animals or plants often result in sterile or lethal hybrids. Identifying the evolutionary forces that create hybrid incompatibility alleles is fundamental to understanding the process of speciation, but very few such alleles have been identified, particularly in model organisms that are amenable to experimental manipulation. We report here the cloning of the first, to our knowledge, Drosophila melanogaster gene involved in hybrid incompatibilities, Hybrid male rescue (Hmr). Hmr causes lethality and female sterility in hybrids among D. melanogaster and its sibling species. We have found that Hmr encodes a protein with homology to a family of MYB-related DNA-binding transcriptional regulators. The HMR protein has evolved both amino acid substitutions and insertions and deletions at an extraordinarily high rate between D. melanogaster and its sibling species, including in its predicted DNA-binding domain. Our results suggest that hybrid lethality may result from disruptions in gene regulation, and we also propose that rapid evolution may be a hallmark of speciation genes in general.
or yeast
Greig D, Louis EJ, Borts RH, Travisano M. Related Articles, Links
Hybrid speciation in experimental populations of yeast.
Science. 2002 Nov 29;298(5599):1773-5.
quote:
If these six examples are the best observational evidence of natural selection, one who accepts creationism can conclude two things.
If those 6 were all you could find we can conclude several things 1) your scholarship is poor 2) you have gleaned your information from creationist websites i.e. your mischaracterization of evolutionary theory 3) your arguments are based on personal incredulity and religious fanaticism as opposed to fact 4) you have a lot of work to do to catch up and HOPEFULLY debate properly as opposed to your presenting million times repeated creationist fallacies as "evidence" against the theory of evolution.

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 Message 1 by The General, posted 08-08-2003 2:49 AM The General has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by The General, posted 09-01-2003 6:39 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 5 of 33 (49341)
08-08-2003 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


Oh yes, more thing....you previously gave as supposed evidence for your assertions that your creation myth is true that the bible says so etc...but you also stated that science supports your beliefs..
could you give a single example of science supporting any of your assertions regarding biblical creationsism...
while your at it, regarding abiogenesis which you have shown an interest in as well....could you give an example of creation ex nihilo that is verfiable..thanks in advance.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 6 of 33 (49343)
08-08-2003 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


Talking about dogs and artificial selection, however:
The General writes:
Unfortunately for Darwinists, this analogy (which attempted to show that natural selection and artificial selection were the same) is terribly misleading. It is misleading because in artificial selection the plant and animal breeders enjoy the intelligence and specialized knowledge to select their breeding stock and to protect their changes from natural dangers. Yet, Darwinist natural selection seeks to establish that purposeless natural process can substitute for intelligent design. For this reason, as well as many others, artificial and natural selections are fundamentally different. In addition, artificial selection shows that there are definite limits to the amount of variation that even the most highly skilled breeder can achieve. The breeding of domesticated animals has produced no new species. Interestingly, the fact that breeding can create no new species shows that artificial selection provides powerful testimony against Darwin’s natural selection.
As an example, the reason dogs do not become as large as elephants, much less change into elephants, is not that we have not been breeding long enough. Instead, it is because dogs do not have the genetic capacity for that degree of change, and they stop growing when their genetic limit is reached.
You are correct that artificial and natural selection are fundamentally different. The key difference is that artificial selection starts with a defined goal or purpose, whereas the natural version merely takes what's there and may or may not modify things. As to dogs, you are also probably correct that genomic plasticity of modern breeds is more or less limited, although back-crossing and atavisms are fairly common. However, it isn't for the reason you stated: evolution has limits. The reason dogs at least don't become giants is because 1) once "ideal" breed characteristics were defined, breeders have gone to extraordinary and often draconian lengths to keep their champion bloodlines "pure" - i.e., maintain the desired traits at the desired frequency (which is one of the reasons mutts are often healthier and more stable); and 2) no one ever saw the need or desire to breed elephant-sized dogs.
Interestingly, it would be at least theoretically possible to take a largish natural population of Canis lupus (assuming you could find a wild-type strain that originated the domestic dog) and set up an artificial breeding program if you wanted elephant-dogs using modern breeding methods. After a large but finite number of generations, always selecting for size, you might be able to generate a humungous breed of giant dogs. Of course, there are likely to be MAJOR structural problems if you're not careful (really really spindly legs that can't support weight, or other bizarreness). And you'd probably also have to have a number of lineages going to cross them down the road to avoid significant in-breeding depression, for instance. After all, given the extant size variation between chihuahua and great dane, for instance, you certainly have one that appears "elephantine" compared to the other. In any event, there's nothing in the Canis genotype that would preclude it, as far as I know.
In the wild, on the other hand, none of these "sports" would have a chance UNLESS the total selection pressures on the population favored an increase in size. With artificial selection you can obviate or eliminate a lot of the pressures that would otherwise limit something like that (i.e. limited food resources, difficult birth, mate preference, predation (bigger tends to equal slower, in general terms), climatological or other abiotic limiting factors, etc).
Artificial selection, because it shows how vast variation can be produced within a given species, provides a very nice demonstration of the creative power of the "selection" part of the equation. Which is, of course, how Darwin used it.
Oh, by the way, plant breeding can and DOES create new species. All the time.
[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 08-08-2003]

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 Message 9 by Peter, posted 08-18-2003 5:07 AM Quetzal has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13040
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 33 (49372)
08-08-2003 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


Hi, General!
Today at 1:40 AM you replied to my Message 14 from your Biblical Creationism thread where I said this:
Admin writes:
About the "length of the article", long time denizens here are well aware that the moderators encourage members to keep posts focused. In particular, please do not simply cut-n-paste long articles into message boxes. Introduce your point, then provide a link to the longer article.
This has motivated me to post an article on Natural Selection. This will come in the next few days.
If your article is long and unformatted I will delete it. If your article is not already available on the net and you would like to post it here at EvC Forum then simply email it to me at Admin and I will post it at the site and provide you the URL. It must be a properly formatted text file, or a properly formatted HTML file. I'm getting out of the copy edit business.
Then, at 1:49 AM you posted this message that ignores my request, though I appreciate that the formatting is improved. I won't delete your message as I said I would since there have been a number of replies, but your posting privileges are suspended. You may be reinstated by assuring me via email to Admin that you will both follow the Forum Guidelines and the requests of administrators and moderators in the future.
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

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Admin
Director
Posts: 13040
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 33 (50185)
08-12-2003 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The General
08-08-2003 2:49 AM


Hi, General!
Thank you for the email. Your posting privileges have been restored.
------------------
--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 9 of 33 (50809)
08-18-2003 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Quetzal
08-08-2003 7:36 AM


quote:
predation (bigger tends to equal slower, in general terms), climatological or other abiotic limiting factors, etc).
Doesn't it also mean 'harder to kill' though ... I don't
think elephants have any natural predators (do they?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Quetzal, posted 08-08-2003 7:36 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Quetzal, posted 08-18-2003 5:52 AM Peter has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 10 of 33 (50815)
08-18-2003 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peter
08-18-2003 5:07 AM


Doesn't it also mean 'harder to kill' though ... I don't
think elephants have any natural predators (do they?)
Living, anyway. But consider: with elephants you have an obligate herbivore that happens to be the largest living terrestrial vertebrate, with a hide like tank armor, that exhibits all the classic threat and defensive displays, herd behaviors, etc of much smaller herbivores, and that has no living predator threats. So riddle me this: human predation aside, why the armor and behaviors? To my mind, this could be an indicator that the invulnerable elephant wasn't always so invulnerable.
Maybe our hairy proboscidean expert might fill us in.

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 Message 9 by Peter, posted 08-18-2003 5:07 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Mammuthus, posted 08-18-2003 6:51 AM Quetzal has replied
 Message 14 by Peter, posted 08-19-2003 5:36 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 11 of 33 (50822)
08-18-2003 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Quetzal
08-18-2003 5:52 AM


The proboscidean pro is up to his trunk this week in experiments...but I can jump in
Most of the size selection in elephants seems to have more to do with sexual selection rather than with a defense mechanism. Elephants on islands tend to dwarf and there are examples of elephant species that were about the size of a baby African elephant when full grown. The enormous tusks of male African elephants are also more for display than for any functional purpose..this was even more extreme in Mammuthus primigenius that had the largest tusks of any proboscidean. The "armor" may have more to do with water requirements of such a huge herbivore than actual defensive purposes...it actually poses a big problem and risk for elephants having such thick skin...if they get a cut that penetrates the skin, the wound heals over the usually infected cut and the elephants die of sepsis..they are much more susceptible than other animals to this type of infection.
Aside from humans, adult elephants do not have natural predators...mammoths were on occassion killed by smilodon and other big cats (remember there were some much bigger predators around up to the end of the Pleistocene)..but this was probably not a major threat for the adults. Where elephants can get nailed is when they are very young. A baby elephant can get snatched by hyenas or lions. They are incredibly dependent on their mothers, aunts and other female relatives for many years and during this time (when they are also much smaller) they are in danger from predators. So the group behavior seems to benefit the protection of the young....which makes sense, the investment in elephant offsrping is huge for a female..2 years gestation and then about 15 years of dependence...you have to make each baby count under those circumstances.....the bulls just run around in bachelor groups beating each other and anything else they can find (including rhinos)..hmmmm sounds a bit like I am describing a certain species of not very hairy ape

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 Message 10 by Quetzal, posted 08-18-2003 5:52 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Quetzal, posted 08-18-2003 7:46 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 12 of 33 (50825)
08-18-2003 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Mammuthus
08-18-2003 6:51 AM


Thank you my hairy friend. That makes a lot of sense. Sexual selection for size and tusks I'd heard before. The armor-as-water retention I hadn't thought about. Makes sense.
Defense of offspring is also a good explanation for the defensive behaviors I've read about. In that case I suppose it's more like cape buffalo:
Lion: "I'm gonna eat your calf."
Buffalo: "Try it schmuck, and I'll turn you into furry cat paste."
I guess size allows you a more aggressive defense than the average "run away, run away" of most herbivores.

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 Message 11 by Mammuthus, posted 08-18-2003 6:51 AM Mammuthus has replied

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 Message 13 by Mammuthus, posted 08-18-2003 8:29 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 13 of 33 (50829)
08-18-2003 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Quetzal
08-18-2003 7:46 AM


Hi Q,
Basically, put elephants on an island and leave them there several thousand years and they will get small real fast and still do fine...ok the smaller forms are extinct so maybe fine is not the right word.
Water to me is the puzzle for mammoths. An elephant needs gallons of water every day to survive. The mammoths were in a climate with little running water as it was trapped in ice and snow most of the time...how did they consume enough snow to meet their water requirements without lowering their core body temp too low all the time?..or there was available water all year around since most mammoth finds are near old river beds....this must have put a huge pressure on mammoths..just finding enough water to survive...it is also why I question the documentaries where they show millions of mammoths walking along the steppe like a big happy social club.

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 Message 12 by Quetzal, posted 08-18-2003 7:46 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 14 of 33 (50991)
08-19-2003 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Quetzal
08-18-2003 5:52 AM


It seems to me (from m's comments) that a likely explanation
for the elephantine size of elephants via sexual selection
has a lot to do with predation -- when there is a threat
mate with a hulking brute who can protect the kids, when
there isn't mate with the less agressive (and perhaps
smaller) males so it's not so rough and they help with the
kids.
I read an article recently about experienced female (birds
I think of some kind -- doh!! can't remember) selecting
smaller, gentler mates while virgin's were going after the
tough bigger males.
You know this IS starting to sound like those hairless-ape
thingy's

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Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Mammuthus, posted 08-19-2003 6:01 AM Peter has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 15 of 33 (50994)
08-19-2003 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peter
08-19-2003 5:36 AM


Actually this is completely wrong...the females do mate often with the larger males..i.e. bigger bulls with larger tusks have the advantage...also, age plays a role..older more experienced bulls have a higher chance of mating...but the females get no advantage in terms of protecting the kids from the males...the males are deadbeat dads...they leave after the musth is over and they have or have attempted to mate with females who are receptive.
When a male elephant reaches puberty, they are forced out of the group to either join up with small groups of other reproductive age males or to wander on their own. Elephant groups consist of adult females and prepubescent males. Raising the young is done exculsively by the females...and predation rarely makes the prey larger. All that would serve is to select for larger predators. Elephant size seems to be mostly a matter of sexual selection.

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 Message 14 by Peter, posted 08-19-2003 5:36 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Quetzal, posted 08-19-2003 6:22 AM Mammuthus has replied
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