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Author Topic:   Defining Unconditional love
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 20 of 104 (448190)
01-12-2008 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taz
01-12-2008 11:02 AM


Foreknowledge and Eternal Torment
Allow me to enter the discussion for a moment. )I'm practicing this argument in my head, so bear with me as I attempt to reconstruct it here )
My Point:
Assuming for a moment that there are two spirits.
1) The One who is, always was, and always will be and
2) The one who was, is not and yet will come.
See...the problem is, we are not only trying to place all of the responsibility and blame on God for eternally being in charge of this stuff, we are attempting to foreknow the future.
Lets go back over your points and allow me to comment:
Taz writes:
(A) God is all knowing.
Phat writes:
Sounds reasonable.
(B) God loves me unconditionally.
Phat writes:
Yes. He loves me unconditionally but will only commune with me conditionally. This is the gray area we need further to discuss. IOW if there were no Hell, all of Gods blessed chillin would be in communion...even Hitler, even the xe Murderer and John Wayne Gacy. Does that make sense?
(C) God knew that I was going to turn atheist at the age of 20.
Phat writes:
What you did at age 20 is irrelevant. All that matters is your thought process at this moment in time. Remember my quote mines from the good book? One flow was, is and will be. The other flow was, is not and yet will come. Assuming a degree of literalness, the present moment is a clear black/white issue. There is no gray.
(D) According to Christians, I owe my existence to god.
Phat writes:
seems reasonable, if He exists...right?
(E) God specifically created me so I could exist in hell for all eternity after I'm dead.
We are only responsible for our present moment. The past is past and the future is not our problem except in regards to our present behaviors and decisions.
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 11:02 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 12:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 23 of 104 (448201)
01-12-2008 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taz
01-12-2008 12:27 PM


Is Monty Hall at the Gates Of Heaven?
Taz writes:
Ok, mumble jumble aside, address the issue directly please. Is god all knowing or not? If so, then he knew I was going to turn atheist and thus will go to the christian hell. If he didn't, then he's not god and we need not worry.
How would I ever know if God was all knowing or not?
Taz writes:
Christian doctrine specifically says that everyone is damned from the start, and it is only accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal savior will one be spared of eternal damnation.
Not all Christian doctrine says this.
Taz writes:
The fact remains that I'm an atheist.
Good. We cleared up the present moment, at any rate.
Taz writes:
At this point, I only see 3 possible choices.
(1) God is all knowing, he created me anyway just so I could go to hell, and thus he does not love me unconditionally.
(2) God is not all knowing, he didn't know I was going to turn atheist, and thus he is not really god.
(3) God is all knowing, he created me knowing I would reject him when I turned 20, he loves me me unconditionally, and so there is no hell.
Lets analyze your conclusions.
(1) ...God does not love me unconditionally (IF He exists)
(2) God is clueless and thus a phony.
(3) God loves me unconditionally and thus there is no Hell.
I would go with # 3. Hell only exists for those who reject reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 12:27 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 12:53 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 25 of 104 (448208)
01-12-2008 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
01-12-2008 12:53 PM


Re: Is Monty Hall at the Gates Of Heaven?
Taz writes:
Do you or do you not believe that everyone is born with the "original" sin and that through baptism one is absorbed of this sin? If you do believe this, then how is this different than being saved only by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior?
To me, accepting Jesus Christ means accepting GOD as knowable. This allows for further prayer, meditation, and reflection in communion. People find it harder to commune with an unknowable God.
As far as Original Sin goes, I'm not sure at this point.
Taz writes:
What happens to all the bad people after they die, according to your Christian belief?
First of all, what by definition is a bad person? Is atheist Taz any worse than Christian phat? Furthermore, is child molester John Wayne Gacy any worse than the Pope? (Or some of the Catholic Priests) or Hitler? Or our Mothers?
Again...as I say...Hell is only found after a rejection of reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 12:53 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 1:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 27 of 104 (448230)
01-12-2008 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taz
01-12-2008 1:14 PM


Re: Is Monty Hall at the Gates Of Heaven?
Taz writes:
What happens to people like Hitler after they die?
Several possibilities.
1) They die, cease to exist, and turn to worm food.
2) They die, are judged by the decisions made in their lives, extenuating circumstances (like childhood abuse or mental illness) and judged based on their reaction to meeting Jesus face to face.
3) They die, their soulish essence is drawn into communion with other soulish essences, and a new form of intelligence emerges.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 1:14 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 4:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18350
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 29 of 104 (448237)
01-12-2008 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taz
01-12-2008 4:57 PM


Re: Is Monty Hall at the Gates Of Heaven?
Taz writes:
I just love answers that are nonanswers.
But you are asking me questions that I can't possibly answer.
That must have been your problem with God, too. You never heard a clear sign, so you concluded that you were brainwashed by a bunch of unloving fundamentalists and threw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater.
Its OK...I question things too...but some things are obvious to me.
who cares if God saves everybody? I can get along with Hitler if God allows him to clean up, first. And that annoying street guy at church that always wants a ride home! And that irritable assistant manager at work.
I believe that I only will be able to have unconditional love with Gods help, however. I like teenagers but I dislike smelly old street people. Know what I mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 01-12-2008 4:57 PM Taz has not replied

  
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