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Author Topic:   Just what IS terrorism?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 112 (159297)
11-14-2004 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by berberry
11-13-2004 7:53 PM


The fact that Begin made the decision to go ahead with the bombing makes him technically a terrorist. In his case, though, I think we have to take into consideration the fact that he did work toward peace in the Middle East later in his life.
So the fact that he was a blatant terrorist should be forgiven because after he got his concessions by being a terrorist... and was then set into a position of legal power... he then demanded everyone else play fair and worked for peace, so that he could enjoy the position he was in and the concessions he got through terrorism?
Meanwhile everyone that lost and so had to resort to the same sort of terrorism, even while trying to negotiate peacefully, remain terrorists?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by berberry, posted 11-13-2004 7:53 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by CK, posted 11-14-2004 9:04 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 24 by berberry, posted 11-14-2004 11:37 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 27 of 112 (159357)
11-14-2004 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by berberry
11-14-2004 11:37 AM


I'm simply saying we should take into account what happened later when assessing the man's life
You seem to have missed my point. The only reason why he changed his ways when he was older is that he got his way through terrorism.
Almost everyone changes once they get what they want. It's like saying a mob boss that stopped his murder spree once he got to the top, should be assessed for those later works that did not require bumping off his rivals.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by berberry, posted 11-14-2004 11:37 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by berberry, posted 11-14-2004 5:24 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 67 of 112 (160968)
11-18-2004 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
11-17-2004 8:11 PM


If it is a Nation State it is an Act of War. It can be moral or immoral, legal or illegal but it is an Act of War.
This makes sense, but...
When the folk committing the activity are not a Nation State, it is Terrorism. It can be moral or immoral, but it is never legal.
This does not.
And I think the nonrehtorical portion of Contras reply sort of shows how there is an equally useful, yet totally different way to define things.
Especially given the loaded term "terrorism", it seems odd to just lump it on anyone that is not a nation state.
Why not?
Nations fighting nations to eliminate a credible military or national security threat: Act of Military War (moral or immoral).
Nations fighting NGOs using intelligence and paramilitary options to eliminate a credible national security threat: Act of Asymmetric War (moral or immoral).
Nations fighting a rival nation, or populace, or NGO in order to achieve a political end, though a credible military or imminent security threat has not been posed by that group: Terrorism.
NGOs fighting any entity which poses a credible military or security threat: Act of Asymmetric War (moral or immoral).
NGOs fighting any entity in order to achieve a political end, though no credible threat has been posed by that entity: Terrorism.
The deciding factor of moral or immoral in the case of warfare, is based on blatant disregard for or deliberate violation of human rights. This includes set humane treatment of enemy combatants, as well as how civilian populations are treated with regard to use of violence.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 11-17-2004 8:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 11-18-2004 9:57 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 71 of 112 (160986)
11-18-2004 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
11-18-2004 9:57 AM


I don't see much difference between what you've said and what I've said.
Uhm, well I guess I do. You linked terrorism to the nature of the actor. I linked it to motivation of the actor.
When a political objective is desired, and there is no credible threat to one's security (in other words livelihood), yet one decides to use violence to change opinion to one's favor, that is terrorism no matter who the actor is. In a way it is almost by definition, as one is using fear in place of other valid alteratives.
When an entity is actually threatened, regardless of the political stances, then it engages in warfare to overcome its adversary. Depending on the way the war is conducted it can be moral or immoral. Depending of the nature of the units involved it is asymmetric or military.
it is nearly impossible to make absolute judgements about motive and threat.
Why? It seems perfectly reasonable that we can objectively determine if the goal is purely political ambition, versus safety/health of one's constituents. What do you feel would stand in the way?
Did Japan have reason to believe prior to attacking Pearl Harbor that the US posed a credible threat?
No. I don't even see how this is a credible example of a problem to define. The attack they launched had nothing to do with Japanese safety, unless you are counting protecting their regional ambitions?
I said, the conflicts between Nation States and NGOs could be harder to identify.
But why? I see according to your nomenclature it would be, but contra did have a point that it could all be defined as types of warfare, and mine makes it clear based on their motives. Kind of a combo between yours and contras position.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 11-18-2004 9:57 AM jar has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 76 of 112 (161078)
11-18-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by contracycle
11-18-2004 11:02 AM


That fact that everyone will lie in order to make their position look better, hardly means that an objective criteria cannot be established.
As far as mine goes, I think I am going to change it a bit as I realize there are some actions that are war, that do not involve a previous threat, yet do not count as terrorism... well they could be and it wouldn't be wrong, but it could be made tighter.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by contracycle, posted 11-18-2004 11:02 AM contracycle has not replied

  
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