rat mothers

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I think the brain dead example is not a good one. People who "become" brain dead, are done so by outside forces. If I caused it by shooting someone in the head, then I would go to jail.

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What about a zygote that doesn't have a brain?

I didn't ask you that, so I do not know why you answered that. I will pray for that.

Technically and brain dead person, doesn't have one either.What would be the reason for that?

So, to you it IS a regretable action, I knew it.
There is hope for you yet If it was illegal. Conception.Good morning to you, have a nice day schraf.

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It is plainly obvious that with a sperm enters an egg, it is a precious moment that starts life.

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So, do you suggest that we ban all birth control methods, such as IUD's, which prevent implantation of the fertilized eggs?Likewise, since most fertilized eggs never implant and are flushed out of the body, do you suggest that we collect and search the menstrual discharge of all females in search of this "precious life" so it can be saved and implanted into a waiting uterus?

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It's a regretable action to abort a baby. I would respect everyone more, if they would just admit that.

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It is a regrettable thing to have an abortion. I know of no pro-choice person who thinks otherwise.But I disagree that an early-term abortion aborts a baby. It's not a baby yet. No more than the millions of fertilized eggs that are flushed out with the menstruation discharge of millions of women all over the world are babies.

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If it was illegal.

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I mean, it's so obvious that having an abortion is exactly the same as walking up to a 4 year old child and shooting him or her in the head, right?If it's murder, it should be illegal, right? And those murduring whores should rot in prison or die for killing their babies, right?

Great! People who want babies aren't generally out there having abortions once they know they might have a baby. I'm sure there are exceptions.Now: How do people who don't want babies feel when this precious moment happens? Are they generally super happy? Absolutely changed? Well, cross me off your respect list. I don't think abortion is inherently regrettable. I think it can be a good thing. Besides, if you want to talk about selfishness, I think having a baby is more selfish than aborting one.

Silly. Of course life begins when it begin, its quite tautalogical. All you are implying here is that I'd respect pro choicers, if they'd agree with me. Which is silly. Highly silly. You make the mistake of putting in people's minds the stereotype image of the pro-lifer. Self-righteous in their morality they want to laud it over those immoral sluts who should 'suffer' (presumably their child should also suffer) for their indescretions, and abortion isn't suffering enough.What's the good in being holier-than-thou if you don't get to rub your hands in glee at those poor misguided souls that can't control their biological urges, unlike us pro-lifers who can.It's very very silly to put that vision in your opponents heads because they aren't going to be persuaded by any of your rational arguments if they think that your real motivation behind being pro-life is to punish the lascivious.Its kind of like slamming your brakes on when you have a tailgater, so that they can suffer the consequences of bad driving. Wouldn't it be far more productive (and less silly) to try and talk drivers in general around to a better understanding of road safety? Perhaps you might call it life - but then so is bacteria, which we regularly slay for our own convenience. Oops, I was careless and I cut myself with a rusty nail. Should I be made to suffer the consequences? After all I have now provided a veritable 'womb'/wound for a whole colony of bacteria to dwell. That bacteria might one day evolve into intelligent life, so I have a dilemma, suffer with an infection or kill the bacteria.This kind of thing is the at the root of the debate, and you talk as if the matter were settled in your favour and everyone should simply see that. Why is it obvious that it is a precious moment? Are you just going to assert that it is so and that should be enough? Its plainly obvious that the world was created 3.14159265 billion years ago be the Thetans and that abortion is sanctioned by W'Fvet of Kraal. Have you paid attention to the pro-choicers at all, or have you simply been arguing past them? This appears to be very silly. Of course it is regrettable to abort a baby, on a number of levels. I'm sure there are some out there that don't give it a second thought, but I've met none. Even those that don't 'regret' having an abortion generally regret that the decision had to be made at all.Personally, I think it is a lot less silly to try and understand the opinions of your opponents in such debates, and try to come to an understanding with them. I lost interest in the abortion debate a long while back because I understood the other side's position, decided it had no merit (once peeled back, it was mainly appeals to emotion) and that was the end of it.If you are going down the path I think you are going down, you are going to have to show some logic behind the concept of life in and of itself is precious (but only in humans). You'll have to show why a unique sequence of chemicals is something special. Simply making emotive assertions about how plainly obvious it is is not going to persuade anyone, and telling people that you would respect them more if only they would agree with you...is silly

I don't think so.It takes the right combinations of events, a one in a million chance.

Way to be unspecific, and safe. I did not imply that, I implied what I said. You are assuming everyone will suffer. Why is it suffering, if it's not life? For the umpteenth time, it has nothing to do with God. I rebuke that, we are all the same. You deduced that all on your own, must be a problem you have.
It's really very simple what I am saying, at least argue the point. OH yea!!! Are they liberal or conservative?But seriously, that is another sore subject with me, the driving test. This is the last time I will say it, bacteris is not human life, and never will be human life. Where's all those silly little logic statements when it comes to this? Oops I was careless and got popped?????Sex is an accident your saying. Let me off this ride right now. Not even close.You can justify it all you want, but it is what it is.Sound the trumpets!!! Victory is at hand!!! After that last statement, we are in understanding. Why don't you do it? You can start by explaining why it is a regretable action. I have.

You still havent defined what exactly it is that you see as life, and please dont use {examples/anecdotes}, just say what it is.
Then base it on a scientific fact that can differentiate a zygote from any other diploid cell in our body. Is that before or after nuclii merging? What if only half of the chromosomes merge and the other half stay wraped in some of the nuclear membrane, is THAT a baby? You obviously know nothing about embryology. The answer is: there is no "magic moment", conscience is a progressivly building function. It builds up from nothing to full conscienceness (there are also semi-conscience states {dreaming, under mild anasthesia, exc.}). In the case of a pregnant mother, before conscienceness, its only the mother who takes the risk, just like the drag racer, and wouldnt be great if a drag racer could protect himself from accidents but still keep doing what he loves to do? This hypthetical situation shows the difference between the existant 'you', and the hypothetical, non-existant 'you', which would have been the case if your mother would have gotten an abortion. If you still insist that you existed immediately after conseption then answer this - how would you know if your mother had an abortion (know - as it was done or afterward)? (Remember you have no conscience prossesing of external information). Thats nonsense - just because there is a cure for polio, doesnt I'm not going to avoid it (quite literally) like the plague. By you logic we should also remove seat belts becuase they promote bad driving. I think your the one thats lost respect for life if you think that mothers will be happy having unwanted babies (it happens) and babies having unwanting mothers (even more terrible). You mean like weed. Thats a terrible reson for doing it. I would illegalize all substances that cause a major kind of adiction and harm (including alcohol and tabbaco). Like I said: conscience is a progressivly building function, so the best I can do is draw a line where I know that the fetus is definitly not conscience. But as to the question of where the line realy is - by the article I'v read either nobody knows or/and it shifts from person to person. "gift of life"? Whats that, more emotionaly charged rhetoric?

Why? No. Yes. No it's not, Your saying I kill innocent helpless babies because I care.It's all about correcting a "mistake". But it's not a mistake when you get pregnant, if you intentionally have sex.

About a million times now. Scientific fact:
A diploid cell will never be anything more when left alone.
A zygote will.So let's drop that comparison ok?

Can you give a link to that? You obviously have no scientific training.
A zygote IS a diploid cell, but under specific conditions - lack of genetic inhibitors, is positioned in a supporting environment ext' - if you where to take any cell and put it in those conditions, it WOULD become a baby. Its called totipotency:
Cell potency - Wikipedia
(the differecne between a regular cell and a stem cell are various
genetic inhibitors).

And yet women seem to get pregnant more often then that - intersting! Besides, even if it were a 1 in a million chance (though I dont understand where you got that from) it would still be a potential life.