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Author Topic:   The Barbarity of Christianity (as compared to Islam)
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4088 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 46 of 299 (286460)
02-14-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
02-10-2006 1:42 PM


Re: setting the record straight
We don't have much information about the first few centuries of Christianity
Depends on what you mean. From the 1st through the fourth centuries, our knowledge of Christianity increases with each succeeding century.
There may not be a lot of outside sources that could be used to clarify points we consider the Christians biased on, there is a lot of internal writings of Christians that give us at least some picture of what they believed and practiced.
I'm writing this because it's a common myth among Christians that we know a lot about the apostolic period because of the Bible, but then there's a big gap till Constantine. No gap at all. The information increases consistently starting right at the beginning of the 2nd century.

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 Message 8 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 1:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 47 of 299 (286464)
02-14-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Chiroptera
02-14-2006 11:57 AM


It may very well be a moot point if the deity is omnipotent and doesn't much care what crashfrog thinks, but that is another discussion.
For the purposes of discussion Crash seems to accept the existance of God. In that case he must accept that the point is indeed moot. Why does Crash think that his view matters to God. Would it not be logically consistant to simply accept that if God is there then he calls the shots and if that is so then the behaviour is objectively acceptable (for God would define objectivity). In that case, Crash might say he is confused by Gods behaviour because it clashes with his own moral framework. In that case he could spend time trying to seek what the lacks were in his moral framework which hauled it out of line with God. He might begin with recognising that the basis for his moral framework is that it is self-generated: aligning itself to a greater or lesser degree with the fluid, changing world-manufactured template. Or even aligning to some degree with Gods own unchanging standard in many cases
"Unacceptable" would indeed be the right word to use - it is ones own view which is unacceptable and needs modification
Pigs may fly. I pray that they do.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 299 (286480)
02-14-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by truthlover
02-14-2006 12:11 PM


Re: setting the record straight
There is enough information available on the first few centuries for Phillip Schaff to write:
For the first three centuries Christianity was placed in the most unfavorable circumstances, that it might display its moral power, and gain its victory over the world by spiritual weapons alone. Until the reign of Constantine it had not even a legal existence in the Roman empire, but was first ignored as a Jewish sect, then slandered, proscribed, and persecuted, as a treasonable innovation, and the adoption of it made punishable with confiscation and death. Besides, it offered not the slightest favor, as Mohammedanism afterwards did, to the corrupt inclinations of the heart, but against the current ideas of Jews and heathen it so presented its inexorable demand of repentance and conversion, renunciation of self and the world, that more, according to Tertullian, were kept out of the new sect by love of pleasure than by love of life. The Jewish origin of Christianity also, and the poverty and obscurity of a majority of its professors particularly offended the pride of the Greeks, and Romans. Celsus, exaggerating this fact, and ignoring the many exceptions, scoffingly remarked, that "weavers, cobblers, and fullers, the most illiterate persons" preached the "irrational faith," and knew how to commend it especially "to women and children."
But in spite of these extraordinary difficulties Christianity made a progress which furnished striking evidence of its divine origin and adaptation to the deeper wants of man, and was employed as such by Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian, and other fathers of that day. Nay, the very hindrances became, in the hands of Providence, means of promotion. Persecution led to martyrdom, and martyrdom had not terrors alone, but also attractions, and stimulated the noblest and most unselfish form of ambition. Every genuine martyr was a living proof of the truth and holiness of the Christian religion. Tertullian could exclaim to the heathen: "All your ingenious cruelties can accomplish nothing; they are only a lure to this sect. Our number increases the more you destroy us. The blood of the Christians is their seed." The moral earnestness of the Christians contrasted powerfully with the prevailing corruption of the age, and while it repelled the frivolous and voluptuous, it could not fail to impress most strongly the deepest and noblest minds.
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-14-2006 12:57 PM

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 640 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 49 of 299 (286582)
02-14-2006 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
02-14-2006 12:56 PM


Re: setting the record straight
That quote say very little about CHristianity in the early years.
It also doesn't address how Christiantiy became later, and how it's exclusive nature allowed for cruelty and barbarity against non-believers.

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 Message 48 by Faith, posted 02-14-2006 12:56 PM Faith has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 299 (286594)
02-14-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by truthlover
02-14-2006 12:11 PM


How much do we know?
I agree with all that you say. But there is still so much that we do not know, or rather where there are hints that there is something to know but the information is missing; lost or purged.
On the subject of behavior though, particularly of violence and oppression, there was little that Christianity could do as long as it was a tiny sect in a backwater provence of a Great Power. It was only when Christianity became the power that it had the capability to be a problem.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 299 (286602)
02-14-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ramoss
02-14-2006 3:45 PM


Re: setting the record straight
It also doesn't address how Christiantiy became later, and how it's exclusive nature allowed for cruelty and barbarity against non-believers.
Perhaps that's because there wasn't any in the early years. That was a medieval phenomenon. In the early years the cruelty and barbarity was from the unconverted Jews against the Jews who followed Christ, and then from the Caesars against the Christians.
That's one chapter in a multi-volume history of Christianity by the way. If you want to know about later Christian history there's plenty more to read.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-14-2006 04:29 PM

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4088 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 52 of 299 (286604)
02-14-2006 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
02-14-2006 3:59 PM


Re: How much do we know?
It was only when Christianity became the power that it had the capability to be a problem.
There was a time that it was a tenet of Christianity that it was "as impossible for a Christian to be a Caesar as it is for a Caesar to be a Christian."
As long as that was true, Christian warfare remained only spiritual. When it was forgotten under Constantine the change was immediate and dramatic. The ancient histories written before and after the era of the Arian controversy, Nicea, and Constantine and the histories written just 50 years afterward (Sozomen and Socrates) are dramatically different.
I remember a discussion once about the Anabaptists, who were the non-violent, radical section of the Reformation. Someone pointed out that even Anabaptists, when they had governmental power, were terribly violent (Munster, Germany), and I remember thinking that the early Christian and early Anabaptist conviction that Christians have no business running governments or fighting wars was probably a very good one.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4988 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 53 of 299 (286610)
02-14-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
02-13-2006 11:54 PM


Re: setting the record straight
Unlike Mohammed, Jesus or his apostles and adherants never harmed anyone physically.
Apart from this famous occasion:
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)
Brian.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 299 (286616)
02-14-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by iano
02-14-2006 12:15 PM


quote:
Would it not be logically consistant to simply accept that if God is there then he calls the shots and if that is so then the behaviour is objectively acceptable (for God would define objectivity).
Yes, I suppose that would be logically consistent. Equally logically consistent would be to accept God may indeed call the shots, but that does not make it right nor just.
-
quote:
In that case, Crash might say he is confused by Gods behaviour because it clashes with his own moral framework.
Or crashfrog might say that simply that God's behavior clashes with his moral framework, and therefore according to that framework God is immoral. Crashfrog might also say that his moral framework is just a valid as God's; indeed, in a fit of arrogance usually exhibited by deities and their followers, crashfrog might even say that it is his moral framework that is absolute and that it is God, omnipotent he may be, who is wrong and unjust.
Having power is not the same being ethical or moral.
Edited to correct a typo.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 14-Feb-2006 10:22 PM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by iano, posted 02-14-2006 12:15 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 55 of 299 (286652)
02-14-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Chiroptera
02-14-2006 5:22 PM


Or crashfrog might say that simply that God's behavior clashes with his moral framework, and therefore according to that framework God is immoral. Crashfrog might also say that his moral framework is just a valid as God's; indeed, in a fit of arrogance usually exhibited by deities and their followers, crashfrog might even say that it is his moral framework that is absolute and that it is God, omnipotent he may be, who is wrong and unjust.
He may do any of these things but his rethoric would be self-defeating. For he could not point to one thing on which to anchor his views and beliefs which didn't originate from God. Moorings polluted and distorted by man along the way oftentimes but moorings originating from God nonetheless. God on the other hand can point to himself as that from which morality rolls down. He doesn't need to point to anything higher than himself for his anchor. Crash may attempt to dance up and down on God but he needs the muscles in his legs and the body, mind and intelligence God gave him in order to do so.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 299 (286657)
02-14-2006 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by iano
02-14-2006 7:08 PM


Hi, iano.
quote:
God on the other hand can point to himself as that from which morality rolls down.
Anyone can point at themselves with equal validity. God's personal choice of morality is no less arbitrary than anyone else's. Even if God is omnipotent and can punish anyone he pleases, it is still arbitrary. Even if God claims the right because he is the creator, it is still arbitrary.
Crashfrog is still reasonable in his own moral judgement. Whether it is wise to spit in the face of an omnipotent being is another question, but we are discussing right vs wrong as opposed to simple power politics.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by iano, posted 02-14-2006 7:08 PM iano has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 299 (286672)
02-14-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Chiroptera
02-14-2006 7:17 PM


Anyone can point at themselves with equal validity. God's personal choice of morality is no less arbitrary than anyone else's
How do you figure that CP. We can say that humans chose arbitarily. In order to chose "arbitarily" we need to have a certain minimum set of circumstances. For man this would go something like:
- selection of choices to be made
- free will to chose between the available options
- a point in time when those choices are made
Can we say that those conditions apply to God. And if so how? If not then how can we say he can choose arbitrarily. For instance, how can one even begin to fit a time-dependant concept such as 'arbitrarily chose' to a realm where there is no time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 02-14-2006 7:17 PM Chiroptera has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 299 (286673)
02-14-2006 8:23 PM


Getting Way Off Topic folk

Garrett
Member (Idle past 6194 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 59 of 299 (287048)
02-15-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
02-10-2006 12:59 PM


Re: setting the record straight
I would point out that since the time the average christian actually had access to the bible, these instances have gone down. The catholic church banned the bible from anyone other than priests for the longest time.
In other words, these actions were always running counter to the tenets of the religion. So what we have is a case of bad people, not bad religion.

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 Message 5 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 12:59 PM jar has replied

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Garrett
Member (Idle past 6194 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 60 of 299 (287050)
02-15-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Chiroptera
02-14-2006 7:17 PM


This isn't valid from a biblical perspective. In the bible, morality is that which is God's character. It certainly isn't arbitrary anymore than it's arbitrery for a fish to require water to breathe.

This message is a reply to:
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