Public Education

Maybe you could explain the rationale behind the fundamentalist religion.Edited by bluescat48, : incorrect word

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

Briefly? Probably this -We are right - therefore there can be no compromiseABE: where I said "understand", perhaps "appreciate" would be more appropriateEdited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Hi, Hyroglyphx. The trick is that, when most people hear the word "indoctrination," they don't simply think of "teaching without logical support" or "teaching without explaining": they think of forceful, abusive brainwashing by angry dictators.That's what makes it so challenging to discuss. As with everything else, we think there is a line between "indoctrination" and "not indoctrination," yet nobody is really clear on where that line is.With our dualistic, black-and-white mentalities, we often automatically associate any instance of indoctrination with the worst possible forms of indoctrination.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

In the Navy Reserve, we perform indoctrination all the time, only we call it "indoc". As in the "Indoc Class" where new reservists arriving at the center are informed of who's who and how the center runs and what's expected of them. Or new-rank indoc where newly advanced sailors are informed of what's expected of them and how they will perform their new duties.I think that civilian companies call it "orientation".

Yes, and parents, quite legitimately and reasonably in a free society, want their children indoctrinated in their OWN values and perspective, that's the point. Edited by Faith, : errant quote code, missing comma

I need to clear a few things up.I have no problem with indoctrination itself. For example, I take care of my body by going to the gym almost every day and watch what I eat. I believe that our body is the vessel that takes us on our journey through this life. And as such, I believe that we should take care of this vessel as best we could. When I have children of my own, I will definitely teach them how to take care of his bodies. In a way, that's indoctrination.My problem with religious indoctrination is it's forcing onto kids the belief in fairy tale creatures. Do you think it's ridiculous to indoctrinate kids in believing immaterial pink unicorns? How about an alien race called the Zeta? Why does god (specifically your judeo-christian god) deserve a special place among all the fairy tale creatures?There are good values and there are bad values. We can get most of these just from common sense alone. For example, I consider the way Lamb and Lynx Gaede were brought up to be a form of child abuse through indoctrination. I can make a very long argument why, but to sum it up they were given a disadvantage in a form of world view since they were born. That's what religionists do to their children. They don't give their children a choice at all in what fairy tale creature they believe in.It is one thing to indoctrinate certain values that you hold. It's another to indoctrinate unsupported beliefs onto your children.Before you object, think about this again. Do you think indoctrinating kids to believe in immaterial pink unicorn or an alien race called the zeta is ridiculous? If so, why should your god be any different? I know I know, your god is real and immaterial pink unicorns and zetas aren't. I give up...

Yes, there is nothing I could say is there? You've equated my God with silly fairy tales and absolutely NOTHING I say could make a difference to you. I could take a little trip back through the history of Western Civilization to try to show you how so many of the very greatest men were true believers who contributed greatly to the improvement of society, and to science, and to much more than that, and you'd just sneer somehow and find some way I'm lying or crazy or they were and so on.SO, let me try this: If people are law-abiding citizens harming no one, doesn't the very concept of a free society mean that they are to be left alone to pursue their own beliefs and raise their children in them no matter how crazy YOU think they are?One could argue that the whole basis of the American form of government was to permit maximum freedom to people to pursue happiness according to their own lights, which should mean having a happy tolerance of all kinds of eccentricities among the citizenry. It assumes we'll all believe differently and that it's not our place to judge others' beliefs unless they threaten the peace of the community in some way. It's a philosophy of live and let live, of freedom of the mind, freedom of the conscience.Ideologies like Marxism, or even it seems, evolutionism, oddly enough, tend to want to control what everybody else thinks, can't tolerate anyone's having a different belief. They are quite adamant and haughty about it too, SO TOTALLY convinced of their rightness and want to coerce everyone to toe their line. That way lies tyranny.I never heard of the Gaedes and just spent half a minute reading Wikipedia about them. They're no threat to you or anyone. Let them believe as they please.You aren't omniscient and it COULD even turn out that you're wrong about a few things, Taz, hard as it is to think such a thing could be possible, I know.Cheers.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

An equal number, if not more, of people who contributed to western civilization believed in other gods, mainly the greek gods. Heck, I would argue that greek civilization was the cradle of western culture and they believed in the olympian gods. But it's rarely as simple as that, is it?Slave owners were law abiding citizens. Segregation supporters were law abiding citizens.President Bush was a law abiding citizen. In fact, he was so law abiding that when he was governor of Texas he openly supported the criminalization of homosexuality.Heck, even the Malawi judges who condemned those men are law abiding citizens.As I have said this many times now, you don't have to be violent and break laws to be the oppressor. Christians nowadays oppress minority groups by the power of voting. Freedom of conscience include criminalizing homosexuality? So, when Governor Bush openly supported throwing people in jail for having sex with other consenting adults, it's freedom. But teaching school children science and it's marxism? Don't get me wrong, I absolutely support their right to racist attitude just like I absolutely support your right to believe in your fairy tale creature. In fact, I have stated many times that if they ever want to take your right to worship away, I will be among the first to use my arsenal of guns to start a revolution.

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You aren't omniscient and it COULD even turn out that you're wrong about a few things, Taz, hard as it is to think such a thing could be possible, I know.

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Which is why I will not indoctrinate my kids in regard to personal beliefs. I will be the first to admit that I am very ignorant about many subjects. I will be the first to admit that I don't have all the answers.That said, have you looked at yourself in the mirror lately? I've read your posts regarding evolution. Now, I'm talking only as someone that majored in science but ended up in law enforcement, and even the misconceptions in your posts gave me a headache. Imagine how real scientists feel when they read through your misconceptions.The sad thing is you will be indoctrinating your kids the same misconceptions that you have posted on this forum.I have a rather large family. I've nephews and nieces of all ages. Kids at very young age believe everything you tell them. I think it is irresponsible and downright abusive to indoctrinate them your religious (fairy tale) beliefs and your misconceptions of science.Why are the Zetas not real yet your god is? Why is Zeus not real yet your god is? Why is Ganesha not real yet your god is? Oh, right, because you have faith. And your kids will have faith, too.Edited by Taz, : Correct spelling. Yes, I proof read my posts.

You could if you present proof. Until that point as far as the education system is concerned it should be treated as NOT FACT. Other wise we would need to teach about Zeus , Thor and the Flying spaghetti monster as fact. Your God can be thought in the context of theology or by it's influence on History (BOTH negative AND positive). It should not be treated as fact until.... well it has facts to back it up.... I have no problem with you teaching the statement above in that context however those beliefs should not be treated as fact it doesn't matter who believed it.No facts no time.... sorry I agree until your beliefs start taking over public and government systems... Then well something needs to be done about this ideologies evolutionism? I wasn't aware it was one? Scientific ideas that have facts to back up the assertion or Religion that has NOTHING ....That's a tough choice.... which one should be taught in public school? I'll give you time to think on that one. There it goes... That annoying "conservative" mentality of hating "elite" or maybe it's just people who know things you don't. Perhaps you should take the time to read about these things you "don't agree with" before you develop an Opinion..You have proven you don't understand what Socialism , Marxism ,communism and evolution are. Why should we take your opinions seriously if you are ignorant of the very things you have opinions on?

Begging your majesty's pardon, but even ignorance and stupidity need to be left alone in a truly free society if a person chooses to stay in that condition. Such strident condemnatory language! You clearly want to pummel us all into your idea of what we should think and believe, and you don't even seem to know that's what you're doing. If we don't conform, what? "Re-education camp" to indoctrinate us? The gulag?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited - thought Faith was responding to me.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Non sequitur. I was talking about the positive achievements of the Christians, I said nothing further than that. Interesting. The right to vote in a free society now being equated with oppression. Tolerance isn't enough we have to be forced to obey laws that violate our consciences. What won't they think of next? Time to take away the vote from all those you disagree with, huh, Mr. President Taz. End of free society, end of the great American experiment. Reduce us to dhimmitude. Obviously your beliefs are SO just and SO right and we are SO evil you should elbow us off the sidewalk when we pass and spit on us. It includes NOT LEGALIZING GAY MARRIAGE, which is a violation not only of Christian morality but the practices of all cultures in all time. Not CRIMINALIZING anything. Live and let live. Stop trying to cram your morals down our throats. He was enforcing a law on the books. You act as if he made the law up. A free society has the right to make such laws. It also has a right to rescind them. They've been rescinded. I appreciate it. I really don't care. You aren't God. Right, time to start thinking of hauling us all off to prison, right? Concentration camp anyway -- There are so many of us violating your standards of proper child raising that's the only place you'd have room for us.Oh maybe not you. You're going to defend us. But others who have the same beliefs about this that you have may not be so tolerant. (Funny to use that word to describe how you carry on). No, I have faith BECAUSE I know He's real. I wish my child had the same faith but I didn't become a believer until after she was grown.But I have no desire to convince you of anything except that in a free society I should be allowed without prejudice to live as I please following my beliefs. Not forced to send my children (grandchildren) to public school or whatever else this coercive mentality that's growing apace in this country decides should be my fate. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I'm confused. Are you saying that slavery was just because it was of the popular opinion? How about segregation? What about interracial marriage ban? People overwhelmingly supported such ban. So, now we know that Faith supports slavery if it's the law. She also supports torture if the law permits it. What else, Faith? What other sadistic views do you support if the law permits it? I'm actually amused at this point.By the way, he wasn't just enforcing the law. He openly supported it. There's a difference between enforcing it and agreeing with it. Ok, if you want to play this game, I can play it, too.I know your god likes to have sex with random dogs he picks up at random homes. See how easy it is to claim to know things? I can do this all day if you want. Tell me when you want to get back to reality. Does this include going out to vote by the masses to have homosexuals be thrown in jail?I'm actually a little scared at this point. I question your sense of moral. I'm a history freak, and your words have been said before in history... right before acts of atrocity were being justified via the law. You don't seem to care if a law is just or not. You don't seem to care what's right or not. Makes me question what they taught you back in nun school.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Did I say stupidity?Either way you need to understand the difference between your beliefs and Science is well it has FACTS to back it up your beliefs do not. Therefore Evolution should be taught and your beliefs should not in a public school.
It's not our fault the FACTS contradict a literal interpretation of your beliefs. I could care less what you believe. You could believe in pink Unicorns that excrete rainbow colored sherbert. I really don't care.If you want to teach your beliefs as fact in a public school and don't have a shred of evidence to back it up then the ideas need to be "pummeled" out of the public school system. Schooling is for learning and last I checked that meant facts which you are in shortage of.

The point is that in the article the right wing is doing just what you don't want, forcing beliefs on others. To them, if it doesn't agree with their beliefs, throw it out.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008