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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 119 of 760 (609694)
03-22-2011 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Wounded King
03-22-2011 11:37 AM


Re: Do not pass go, do not collect ...
Wounded King writes:
Not necessarily, it is just that there is no evidence for such mechanisms operating in metazoa, and such mechanisms would need a radically different operation in large multicellular organisms compared to unicellular ones.
If we look at Wright's mechanism for instance it rapidly becomes clear that in an organisms with a sequestered germline you aren't going to see the same interaction of genome to environment in terms of de-repression of genes in response to a challenge. Consequently the bias for mutations in transcriptionally active sites will not be towards metabolic genes triggered by the response.
Instead we might expect to see a pattern of bias towards genes transcriptionally active in germline development and early embryonic development. Such genes would be likely to affect survival of the particular cell lineage in which a mutation arose and, arising early, such a lineage would be likely to have a chance of contributing substantially to the germline.
TTFN,
WK
When you say "Such genes would be likely to affect survival of the particular cell lineage in which a mutation arose and, arising early, such a lineage would be likely to have a chance of contributing substantially to the germline.", does that mean only an increased chance for survival or do you mean that those changes that happen to be towards increased survival will have a greater chance of contributing substantially to the germline?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Wounded King, posted 03-22-2011 11:37 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Wounded King, posted 03-22-2011 12:31 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 760 (609701)
03-22-2011 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Wounded King
03-22-2011 12:31 PM


Re: Do not pass go, do not collect ...
So not something showing bias towards fitness necessarily?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Wounded King, posted 03-22-2011 12:31 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Wounded King, posted 03-22-2011 1:11 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 760 (609706)
03-22-2011 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Wounded King
03-22-2011 1:11 PM


Re: Do not pass go, do not collect ...
Wounded King writes:
So not something showing bias towards fitness necessarily?
Well the idea from Wright's article is that the bias towards derepressed/transcriptionally active genes focuses mutation, good and bad, on those genes. Over the entire population this may lead to a higher proportion of beneficial mutations suitable to the current stress. In this new speculation we might say that it will tend to make early development more robust.
TTFN,
WK
Okay, but by filtering out the "bad" mutations early?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Wounded King, posted 03-22-2011 1:11 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Wounded King, posted 03-23-2011 5:21 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 760 (609752)
03-22-2011 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by shadow71
03-22-2011 7:29 PM


Re: Cart/Horse
shadow71 writes:
jar writes;
You really can't get anything straight can you?
YOU inserted religion and even said that you began with the conclusion.
YOUR posts are more than enough to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Creationism and Intelligent Design are NOT science but only an attempt to palm the pea, con the rube, sell the snake oil.
I have never said that Creationism and Intelligent Design are science.
I have read and quoted experts on this board who disagree with some very important tenets of the modern synthesis and have taken the postion that the modern synthesis's postion that "secular naturalism" is not the explanation of evolution.
I may be wrong, but you may be wrong.
Why are you so upset that someone may disagree with you?
On this I'm not upset at all, far more just amused. I find your posts hilarious and readily admit being greatly entertained by them.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by shadow71, posted 03-22-2011 7:29 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by shadow71, posted 03-23-2011 4:54 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 760 (609832)
03-23-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by shadow71
03-23-2011 4:13 PM


Re: Do not pass go, do not collect ...
shadow71 writes:
Wounded King writes:
So if transcriptionally active/derepressed genes are more liable to mutation then at these early stages that bias would be towards genes associated with early development which are prime candidates for being subject to strong selective pressures due to the sensitivity of early development.
Are you agreeing that these are non-random mutations that are beneficial for fitness?
And non-random mutations that are not beneficial for fitness.
Sorry charlie but the two things are totally separate.
Fitness is only determined AFTER the fact.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by shadow71, posted 03-23-2011 4:13 PM shadow71 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 760 (609839)
03-23-2011 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by shadow71
03-23-2011 4:54 PM


Re: Cart/Horse
shadow71 writes:
jar writes:
On this I'm not upset at all, far more just amused. I find your posts hilarious and readily admit being greatly entertained by them.
I'm glad you enjoy them. Perhaps you will also learn something from them.
I have, that you have no idea what science is or how to approach a problem scientifically.
You still seem to think the goal is to try to find (or manufacture, or pretend to find) information that supports your position.
That is clear.
It is also why you are doomed to fail.
Science and reality are not like the Law, not related to finding support for a position, but rather looking, searching, spending all possible effort to disprove your position.
You have a desired outcome. Thus you have already failed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by shadow71, posted 03-23-2011 4:54 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 161 of 760 (609934)
03-24-2011 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by shadow71
03-24-2011 3:54 PM


Re: Cart/Horse
shadow71 writes:
In a court of law I, as the attorney, present the Expert, in this case Shapiro via his papers that contain the data, and then with the evidence admitted into evidence, I interpret his testimony in my argument to the jury. That is what I am trying to do in this thread.
Thank GOD then that science has nothing to do with a Court of Law and does NOT follow the procedures that work in such environments.
AbE:
As I tried to point out to you back in Message 107, your procedure is 180 degrees away from the scientific method. You start with a conclusion and then try to find support or manufacture support and to sway some jury. That simply does not work when it comes to science or the scientific method.
Edited by jar, : AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by shadow71, posted 03-24-2011 3:54 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by NoNukes, posted 03-24-2011 11:48 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 167 of 760 (609982)
03-25-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by NoNukes
03-24-2011 11:48 PM


Re: Cart/Horse
So Shadow is once again just blowing smoke?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by NoNukes, posted 03-24-2011 11:48 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by NoNukes, posted 03-28-2011 9:19 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 275 of 760 (612071)
04-12-2011 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Tanypteryx
04-12-2011 9:34 PM


On the intelligence he's trying to market.
If someone is going to claim that the behavior of plants or mutations at the genetic level are "intelligent" then they have reduced intelligence to absolutely nothing more than an unthinking response to environmental stimuli.
Makes Intelligent Design pretty irrelevant.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-12-2011 9:34 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-12-2011 9:51 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 287 of 760 (612126)
04-13-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by shadow71
04-13-2011 12:00 PM


Re: Is phenotypic plasticity magic?
shadow71 writes:
I was under the impression that Darwin and the "neo-Darwinists" and the current modern theories did not recognize that evolution is sensitive, that cells directed movements of their parts, that the plant cells contains "brains".
Please present the plant brain to be examined.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by shadow71, posted 04-13-2011 12:00 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 335 of 760 (612535)
04-16-2011 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by shadow71
04-16-2011 7:10 PM


Re: Cairns and directed mutation
shadow71 writes:
NoNukes writes:
Do you understand Shapiro to state that random mutations do not occur and that natural selection is not an important or relevant part of the evolutionary theory?
You talk about random vs non-random as if it were one or the other. I don't believe Shapiro or any other non-kook biologist shares that opinion.
I am torn as to whether there can be random mutations, but not convinced they do not occur. I do not rule out selection, but what I have a problem with is that this whole process of evolution is toatally random, accidential and w/o purpose.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that is the big difference between Science and the Law; in science there is no desired outcome.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by shadow71, posted 04-16-2011 7:10 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by shadow71, posted 04-16-2011 8:16 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 337 of 760 (612537)
04-16-2011 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by shadow71
04-16-2011 7:22 PM


Re: Is phenotypic plasticity magic?
shadow71 writes:
NoNukes writes:
Yes, we know how you interpret Shapiro.
Why didn't Shapiro answer your question with a "Yes"? Instead, he gave you a quite carefully worded response that was completely consistent with what he says in his paper. What do you think the word "potential" means in his response? What did "certain changes" mean?
Shapiro in his paper of 2010 wrote:
Shapiro writes:
This regulatory/cognitive view of genome restructuring helps us to formulate reasonable hypotheses about two unresolved questions in evolutionary theory: (i) the connections between evolutionary change and ecological disruption; and (ii) the origins of complex adaptive novelties at moments of macroevolutionary change.
So Shapiro is not stating that Natural Genetic Engineering is a fact, but it is a hypothesis on evolutionary change, the enviroment, and sentience in cells, and the origins of macroevolution. He does not believe the modern synthesis explains these issues completely.
He discusses a regulatory/cognitive view of evolution, which is a far cry from random mutation and accidential changes.
I tend to agree with him.
I cannot speak for him but I think as a scientist he knows that he may be right or he may be wrong, so he will not answer with a yes or no. Rather he is saying this is what I opine from my research and is throwing it out to the scientific community or debate.
That you tend to agree with him is why you will ultimately fail.
Stop and think.
What will a cell use for cognition?
What will a cell use for sentience?
Sorry but there is simply nothing available to think with.
The most that can be said is that there might be some response (chemical and physical) to specific stimuli.
But there is no thought, no direction, no design.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by shadow71, posted 04-16-2011 7:22 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by shadow71, posted 04-16-2011 8:19 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 343 of 760 (612544)
04-16-2011 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by shadow71
04-16-2011 8:16 PM


Re: Cairns and directed mutation
shadow71 writes:
jar writes:
And that is the big difference between Science and the Law; in science there is no desired outcome.
If you read the postings on this board in reply to the scientific papers I cite, there is a definite desired outcome that the current theory of evolution not be challenged.
I'm sorry but that is totally false, simply not true.
The current theory of evolution is the result of 150 years of successful challenges. That is how it has changed.
What will assure your utter failure is that you have a desired outcome.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by shadow71, posted 04-16-2011 8:16 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 345 of 760 (612546)
04-16-2011 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by shadow71
04-16-2011 8:19 PM


Re: Is phenotypic plasticity magic?
shadow71 writes:
jar writes:
That you tend to agree with him is why you will ultimately fail.
Stop and think.
What will a cell use for cognition?
What will a cell use for sentience?
Sorry but there is simply nothing available to think with.
The most that can be said is that there might be some response (chemical and physical) to specific stimuli.
But there is no thought, no direction, no design.
Those are the issues we may well solve in the future with unbiased scientific research.
Stop and think, please.
What can a cell use for cognition?
What can a cell use for sentience?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by shadow71, posted 04-16-2011 8:19 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 368 of 760 (612643)
04-17-2011 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by OliverChant
04-17-2011 3:06 PM


Re: OK then:
OliverChant writes:
One last thing what proof is there we are currently evolving?
Do you even know what evolving means?
You really need to learn that as a first step towards knowledge.
Once you know that, then ask yourself if you are a clone of your parents?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by OliverChant, posted 04-17-2011 3:06 PM OliverChant has not replied

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