Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,890 Year: 4,147/9,624 Month: 1,018/974 Week: 345/286 Day: 1/65 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creationist response to cetacean femur, leg atavism, and limb bud.
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 29 of 61 (618590)
06-04-2011 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Aaron
05-30-2011 12:37 PM


Re: Moderator Request
Aaron writes:
If someone would like to perform a good service (perhaps even the OP's author), they could summarize the OP into a few paragraphs summarizing the evidence and arguments.
Good point. I realize this article is a little much for this type of venue. I was mostly using it as an opportunity to flesh out some thoughts.
Basically, I'm tackling three aspects of whale anatomy that have previously been considered only explainable from an evolution standpoint.
1.) The presence of a femur/tibia in certain whales
2.) The occasional presence of a hind "limb" in cetaceans
3.) The emergence and regression of a "limb bud" in cetaceans
I believe each of these has been misrepresented and errantly used as evidence of cetacean quadruped ancestry.
There is good evidence that the limb buds are not limb buds at all, but are involved in forming the mammary region.
This helps explain why the femur and tibia in whales (as well as the pelvis) are so dramatically different in their orientation when compared to a quadruped pelvis and limb. Their developmental process and function are quite different.
Also, if the hind buds are not limb buds, then the occasional hind "limb" can't be a leg reversion - and indeed the physical and chemical evidence strongly suggests these limbs are not at all atavistic reversions.
indeed organized creationism has said the marine mammals did not evolve from land.
This YEC creationist insists marine mammals were all from the land and descendants off the Ark.
They simply filled a empty post flood sea.
i welcome and want to find great evidence for marine mammals being post flood adaptations.
In fact they make the case against evolution because they are amongst the very few creatures with remnants of former anatomical structures indicating a previous type of body.
If evolution was true all creatures should be crawling with remnants of this and that.
In fact only these creatures obviously first land creatures have these vestiges.
They could adapt to the seas so far but not do the full fish thing.
In fact since creationism teaches there are only kinds and common details are just because of common needs then it could only be that marine mammals are the original like needs of mammals.
I mean that there are no such creatures as mammals but only like needs bred like details in unrelated creatures.
I don't see a evolution of land to marine but rather such rapid adaptation that some mothers son could swim but not mom.
Marine mammals could only be from land creatures and indeed creationists should embrace this .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Aaron, posted 05-30-2011 12:37 PM Aaron has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Granny Magda, posted 06-04-2011 6:05 AM Robert Byers has replied

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 45 of 61 (619059)
06-08-2011 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Granny Magda
06-04-2011 6:05 AM


Re: Moderator Request
Granny Magda writes:
HI Robert,
Oh dear. You have decided to clutter up Aaron's nice thread.
Suffice to say that, where Aaron brings evidence, you bring nothing. You say "This YEC creationist insists", as though your insistence alone could make your fantasies true. It's pathetic.
Even worse, where you do make specific claims, you are painfully wrong.
Robert Byers writes:
In fact only these creatures obviously first land creatures have these vestiges.
That is wrong. Not just a little bit wrong, but staggeringly, woefully, embarrassingly wrong. Just google Sirenians to see how wrong you are. They display very similar hind-limb structures to those of whales. Further, there are vestiges and homologies throughout the animal kingdom.
That is evolution you strange man.
Look, you're not achieving anything here beyond letting your amazing ignorance hang out for all to see, so might I ask that you don't mess up this nice thread with your vague and semi-literate ramblings? Please? Thank You.
Mutate and Survive
I said and meant marine mammals. Not just whales.
Your wrong about vestigial remnants being common in the animal etc kingdom.
In fact I would guess 98% do not have any anatomical remains of previous states of evolutionary stages.
The few make the case against evolution.
Anyways I welcome all evidence to prove that marine mammals did first come from the land.
I think this will be a future creationist correction and new opinion.
They too quickly ignored this special case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Granny Magda, posted 06-04-2011 6:05 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-08-2011 1:56 AM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 48 by Granny Magda, posted 06-08-2011 8:10 AM Robert Byers has replied

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 49 of 61 (619487)
06-10-2011 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Granny Magda
06-08-2011 8:10 AM


Re: Moderator Request
Granny Magda writes:
Hey Byers,
I said and meant marine mammals. Not just whales.
That you did. Fair enough.
So you acknowledge that marine mammals evolved. That means that you have nothing further to add to this thread. This thread is for those who wish to argue that whales did not evolve from land animals. If you think that they did, you have no role to play here. Please stop posting here.
In fact I would guess...
No-one could care less about your guesses, especially in a thread where a creationist member has gone to such efforts to provide evidence for his position. Since you provide none, you have no business posting here. Please stop. You are ruining Aaron's nice thread.
Anyways I welcome all evidence to prove that marine mammals did first come from the land.
If you want to argue that evidence for evolution is evidence against evolution, do it somewhere else.
Mutate and Survive
I don't agree with evolution by selection on mutation.
Rather I see massive diversity, like in the Amazon, as coming from inate triggers in bodies to allow great and instant change.
The example being seals today. tHere are seals with different kinds of walking ability. Their legs are slightly different.
yet if they were covered suddenly by some great movement of sediment and they were living in slightly segregated areas on the beach evolutionists would later say BEHOLD this evolved from that.
Yet we know they lived together at the same time and are not evolving into each other.
Likewise there is no evolution marine mammals evident. Just results from a common time when they were suddenly overthrown by sediment by water .
One is wasting ones time in looking at fossils if they are not from different ages. you must first prove this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Granny Magda, posted 06-08-2011 8:10 AM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Admin, posted 06-11-2011 8:22 AM Robert Byers has not replied
 Message 59 by CoolBeans, posted 06-02-2013 12:48 AM Robert Byers has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024