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Author Topic:   Can sense organs like the eye really evolve?
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 11 of 242 (636432)
10-06-2011 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Adequate
10-06-2011 11:29 AM


Dr Adequate writes:
Let's add scallops to the list.
Plenty of eyes, but no brain.
Surely this depends on how you define "brain": scallops have a central nervous system, which includes ganglia for the processing of visual information and centralized coordination of reaction to visual stimuli.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-06-2011 11:29 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 10-06-2011 1:35 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-06-2011 2:43 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 13 of 242 (636434)
10-06-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Wollysaurus
10-06-2011 12:56 PM


Aside: Coyne and Dawkins
Disclaimer: this post is off-topic, but I don't really want to start a new topic for it.
Hi, Wollysaurus.
Wollysaurus writes:
Coyne's book, by contrast, isn't quite as "harsh" on the intelligent design crowd and is technically a bit easier to digest.
I saw Jerry Coyne give a talk in promotion of that book (Why Evolution is True), and I was unhappy with it. His evidence for evolution was great, but his explanation of the scientific method made me sick, and he quickly turned his evolutionary talk into an argument that religion was the root of all societal problems today. All in all, it wasn't a very productive way of promoting evolution. I did not read the book, however.
Dawkins is speaking tonight to promote his newest book, and I just might go see him. If I go, I'll let you know what my thoughts are.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Wollysaurus, posted 10-06-2011 12:56 PM Wollysaurus has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 66 of 242 (636854)
10-11-2011 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Robert Byers
10-11-2011 12:48 AM


Hi, Robert.
Robert Byers writes:
The 'intermediate' eyes are in fact totally suitable mechanisms for seeing for these types of creatures Darwin talks about.
This seems indicative of a total misconception about what evolution is.
According to the Theory of Evolution, animals whose characteristics are not suitable for use in their environment will not be successful. By 'successful,' we mean "survive and reproduce."
So, according to the Theory of Evolution, all the 'intermediate' eyes would have to be suitable, otherwise the organism's success is not facilitated by them.
What that means is that, not only do populations of organisms evolve gradually, in an irregular series of steps, as it were; but, every 'intermediate' step in the series also has to be viable, functional and, yes, even successful.
-----
Robert Byers writes:
Still my point was that the fossil record, if possible to record eyes, should be swarming in intermediates and vestigial eyes.
I highlighted the operative phrase for you. I don't personally know of any fossils of vertebrates in which the eyes are preserved. Maybe some of the other users here know of some.
Molluscs don't actually fossilize much at all (except for their shells), and arthropods seem to have evolved the basic layout of their eyes almost half a billion years ago, at a time when the fossil record is, in general, very poor.
So, from what I can gather, I don't see how we could realistically expect anything from the fossil record in regards to the evolution of eyes.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Robert Byers, posted 10-11-2011 12:48 AM Robert Byers has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Coragyps, posted 10-11-2011 2:41 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2727 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 68 of 242 (636867)
10-11-2011 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Coragyps
10-11-2011 2:41 PM


Hi, Coragyps.
Coragyps writes:
Trilobite eyes, or at least their lenses, excepted: they are mineralized from the get-go, being made of calcite.
Of course. Arthropod eyes are made of the same stuff as the rest of the exoskeleton, so they tend to fossilize just as well as any other part of the bug does. There are fossils of dragonfly eyes, mantis eyes, spider eyes, etc.
But, the available fossil record doesn't really show the origin of the compound eye structure, or, to my knowledge, any predecessors or intermediate forms*. This is probably because the structure evolved through the various intermediate phases in soft-bodied ancestors that did not fossilize well.
*The compound eye is, however, thought to be derived from a proliferation of the ocelli, or simple eyes, which are present in both modern arthropods and their closest relatives, the onychophorans. Still, the ocellus first appears in the fossil record as a complete unit, and there are still no really good theories on how these evolved from pigment patches or eyespots, etc.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Coragyps, posted 10-11-2011 2:41 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
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