Stem Cells and Ethics

You could easily dehumanize us as well by noting, that, whether you were born or are still in utero doesn't take away that we too are a clump of cells. One is intentional and the other is an accident. That's like me asking God what He would do in relation to a man that slips and falls and compare it to a man who was bludgeoned to death. The stark difference is transparent.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

A cell, is a cell, is a cell. Neither have a brain or a circulatory system. They simply comprise the brain and the circulatory system. At most they have a nucleus to dictate their functions.But all that is besides the point. The point is whether or not it is ethical. Lets suspend the ethical question momentarily to ask purely pragmatic questions-- like, what compelling indication is their that would allow us to play God in the first place?This is what we currently know: That adult stem cells have a proven success rate. Fetal stem cells are hypothesized to cure all sorts of maladies based on their pluripotency. The problem is that it metastasizes so quickly that its been nothing but destructive.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

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like, what compelling indication is their that would allow us to play God in the first place?

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Getting rid of abortion saves lives! There is a greater chance for a fetus to come to full term and live out a normal life, such as you and I are were fortunate enough to have. (Thanks Mom! You're the best!)Than what embryonic stem cells have produced. Are you so caught up in the romanticism of what they speculate they might do, rather than knowing what we currently know?-- that they've produced nothing?

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Fetal stem cells are hypothesized to cure all sorts of maladies based on their pluripotency. The problem is that it metastasizes so quickly that its been nothing but destructive.

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Naturally.

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"Medical researchers believe that stem cell treatments have the potential to change the face of human disease and alleviate suffering. A number of current stem cell treatments already exist, although they are not commonly used because they tend to be experimental and not very cost-effective.

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In the future, medical researchers anticipate being able to use technologies derived from stem cell research to treat cancer, spinal cord injuries, and muscle damage, amongst a number of other diseases and impairments.

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However, there still exists a great deal of social and scientific uncertainty surrounding stem cell research, which will only be overcome through years of intensive research and by gaining the acceptance of the public.

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Furthermore, many technical difficulties remain which hinder the ultimate goals in stem cell therapeutics. Expanding stem cell populations extracted from patients remains a large problem.

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Also, even once these populations are expanded, implanted stem cells may not expand or grow efficiently enough to add enough corrective factor to be beneficial for treatment. These and other technical problems remain to be solved.

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Current treatments

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For over 30 years, bone marrow (adult) stem cells have been used to treat cancer patients with conditions such as leukemia and lymphoma. During chemotherapy, most growing cells are killed by the cytotoxic agents.

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These agents not only kill the leukemia or neoplastic cells, but also those which release the stem cells from the bone marrow. These are therefore removed before chemotherapy, and are re-injected afterwards.

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-linkEmphasis added on key words by Nemesis_JuggernautOther links

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

A fetus has a fully operational neurological system at 12 weeks, (not that there is a need for such extraneous information because it doesn't detract from what you initially said). You are attempting to dehumanize the fetus to give it the appearance of unimportance. But if you can frivolously note that a fetus is merely a clump of cells, then so are you by the same reasoning.

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One [man-made abortions] is intentional and the other [spontaneous abortions] is an accident. That's like me asking God what He would do in relation to a man that slips and falls and compare it to a man who was bludgeoned to death. The stark difference is transparent.

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It is in God's hands. The very ability you possess to choose a poor decision or a good decision is only by His permissive will-- lest you be an automaton.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

RAZD, there are upwards of 100 nations dissecting human remains right now all over the world trying to perfect their craft. Nobody has a problem with stem cell research. We have a problem with Embryonic Stem Cell research, which has produced nil.

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"Because of their plasticity and potentially unlimited capacity for self-renewal, ES cell therapies have been proposed for regenerative medicine and tissue replacement after injury or disease. To date, no approved medical treatments have been derived from embryonic stem cell research."

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-WikiPerhaps you're too busy on a philosophical crusade to stop and look at the actual evidence, or in the case of embryonic stem cells, the sheer lack of it. What is your beef with adult
stem cells if they already have an established record of success?Or at the very least, lets use those fetal stem cell lines[/url] already available in laboratories without needlessly destroying more. Or is that even the? Shouldn't we see some measure of promise beyond total speculation before we jump headlong into this, when there are so many ethical concerns as is?

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

It destroys an embryo. What's your problem?

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

The problem from a medicinal standpoint, as I understand it, is that embryonic stem cells are generally undifferentiated. So its hypothesized that you can differentiate them to become whatever cell line you wish. But the rapidity of its growth remains unchecked and often without any way of regulating the growth of the cell(s). And what is a rogue cell line that grows rapidly beyond control? That's cancer. Aside from the tumor formations, there are unstable gene expressions, and an inability to stimulate the cells to form the desired type of tissue."The latest pre-embryo substitute on the block is "pluripotent" vs. "totipotent". That is, the cells (or blastomeres) of the early developing human embryo are "pluripotent" rather than "totipotent" - the point of the Framers being that these "pluripotent" cells could never ever naturally revert to new human organisms - human beings. Why? Because these human embryonic cells are too "differentiated" now - they can only give way to more cells, tissues and organs - never revert to new human embryos. They are simply needed for basic research and "stem cell therapies". Not to worry.

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But the "pluripotent" claim is not true, and is refuted by the accurate objective scientific facts. Most of the cells of the early developing human embryo - both in vivo and in vitro, whether derived from sexual or asexual reproduction - are totipotent, not pluripotent. And that means that they can not only produce all of the cells, tissues and organs of the adult human being, but also that IF IF IF separated from the whole human embryo they have the natural capacity to be regulated and reverted back to new human embryos - for use in whatever project happens to be around at the time. Again, the proof is right before our collective eyes - in the empirical fact of "twinning". If twins are formed - and they are - that could only happen if at least some of the cells of the early human embryo were totipotent. "Twinning = totipotent".

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This magnifies the ethical objection of killing already living "surplus" IVF-produced human embryos considerably -- to one of purposefully producing vats-full of living human embryos by "twinning" and other cloning techniques for research and for reproductive purposes. The Framers just call them "immortal human embryonic stem cell lines" instead.

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And so the term "pluripotent" is now featured as the very major premise in statements about "alternative methods", "regenerative medicine" and even research studies and bioethics "courses" across the fields, on both sides of the aisles - well on its way to being immortalized and institutionalized by the Framers. And it is working too, resulting in the desired confusion, contradictions and adherents as needed.

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For example, all four of the current proposals for "alternative sources of human embryonic stem cells" (among other concerns) assume as their major premise that these stem cells are pluripotent, rather than totipotent. No questions asked. Thus whatever is being claimed for these "pluripotent" stem cells is actually true for totipotent stem cells instead!"

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

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it looks more like it puts an embryo that would have been simply flushed down a toilet or tossed in the garbage.

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That's the problem.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

Its morally wrong to have ever arrived there to begin with. So what? Given that every child that passes through a birth canal is connected to an umbilical cord means that you could extract all of the stem cells you could have ever hoped for without needlessly killing one, single thing.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

I think its better to let an embryo grow inside the mother's womb, just like how your mother let you live and neither be minced or flushed.Make sense?

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

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So what? Given that every child that passes through a birth canal is connected to an umbilical cord means that you could extract all of the stem cells you could have ever hoped for without needlessly killing one, single thing.

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No, you aren't understanding me. Umbilical cords are jam packed with stem cells. So are placenta. Both of those items would be discarded. Why destroy a life if what you want is stem cells?This is an agenda to help support abortion, since there is no earthly reason why you couldn't just use the two items I described. So are you. Does it escape your attention that you were once an embryo. You also realize that living things grow, where as non-living things don't. An embryo is living. No matter how much you'd love to dehumanize a baby in utero, its not going to change its disposition.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

Your argument depends entirely on the unknown variable of chance. Its far more reasonable to think that an embryo will survive, than won't. It only definitely won't survive when someone extracts it prematurely. "Physician, heal thyself."What I'm advocating is the abolition of taking embryo's out of the mother's womb and dissecting them so they can conduct Nazi medical experiments.The problem is how they arrived in the first place. Which would make you playing God, not me. The owners of the genetic material are themselves. You just think that embryo's belong to you. They don't. They belong to themselves.But really, all this is aside from the point. If stem cells are really what you're after, then extract them from the umbilical cord and/or the placenta. Why bring a fetus in to it when there are more than ample resources to get those cells?I'm all for seeing if fetal stem cells will one day yield as much, or more, fruit as adult stem cells have. But not at the risk of needlessly taking one life in order to spare another's.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

The only real restrictions are in the United States, and that's only with Federal funding, not private. There are ample resources all around the world trying to figure it out now.

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What is your beef with adult stem cells if they already have an established record of success?

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It's not that they could... They already do. The problem is you have to find differentiated cells. Put it this way: When you were developing in your mothers womb, most of your cells were undifferentiated-- meaning, it could have gone to develop what ever kind of cell it wanted to. As you age, those cells become differentiated and are essentially assigned a function.What researchers like about Embryonic Stem Cells is that they theorize that they can manipulate an undifferentiated stem cell to help repair some malady, say cancer or MLS. The problem so far is that when they take those undifferentiated cells, they metastasize beyond control. And instead of healing the patient, it actually gives them cancer.Cancer, as I'm sure you know, is nothing more than cells splitting out of control. They lose regulatory functions that healthy cells have. That's not true. Adult Stem Cells are already, and have been, healing all sorts of diseases. Like I said, researchers simply like the fact that Stem Cells are pluripotent (undifferentiated), whereas Adult Stem cells are totipotent (differetiated). And even then, the pluripotency is actually debateable.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

Because that's the precise moment where one second you don't exist, but do in the next. Oh, really? Is that why when they see a pregnant woman, people ask how the baby is doing? Is that why they want to know the name of the amorphous blob in your uterus? Is that why parents are sad when that amorphous blob dies? Oh, wait... According to you, they don't die because they were never really alive to begin with. Retreat? How about, we go around and around over the same points endlessly until I get sick of answers 42 nastygrams per every post that I write? That sounds a little more in keeping with reality. That's not actually growing. That would be like saying stalagtites or stalagmites grow when accumulation might be the more appropriate term.But all this is hair splitting. Are you actually saying that an embryo is not organic material? But they aren't supposed to be, Crash. I have an objection to test tube babies. RAZD says that I advocate playing God, but harvesting embryo's fits that criteria better.Aside from which, if you really just want stem cells, then get them from an umbilical cord or a placenta. If you can get them from these sources, then it completey renders the argument moot. Its a win/win situation this way.

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

DNA, down to the last transposon, is exactly the same for both. That means they are no different, genetically, which renders your argument moot-- and genetically is the angle you were coming from with this argument.If mental capacity, at the time of death, is some how a (dis)qualifier in your mind, then make that your argument. You said that a fetus is just a clump of cells. If they are, then so are we since genetically we are one and the same.

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It is in God's hands.

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Why would God need to micromanage us in order for it to be in His hands? If God established gravity and He made the genetic schematics for your body, you going splat on the concrete is a consequence of His law. I think that you think God must control us completely when you hear someone say, "Its in God's hands."

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"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton