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Author Topic:   The Electric Eel - more evidence against evolution
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 42 of 101 (704339)
08-08-2013 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Haldir
08-08-2013 8:06 AM


Immediate or Gradual?
Hi Haldir, welcome to EvC! It's fun here, feel free to look around 'n stuff.
The Source writes:
We do not know the crucial features that evolved to alter the adequate stimulus from a mechanical event to an electrical one, but the change in sensitivity was many orders of magnitude and, in each class of electroreceptor, was tuned to a best frequency that could be many octaves apart.
Can you explain what the source is talking about here?
The sensitivity of what?
Is the source claiming that a regular eel went to an awesomely electrical electric eel in one step?
Or are they claiming that they simply don't know what happened to take a regular eel to an awesomely electrical electric eel over a very long time?
Haldir writes:
1. A change in sensitivity of many orders of magnitude.
If this is claimed to be quick, then I agree a problem exists.
If this is claimed to be slow... I don't see a problem. Things specialize all the time. Why wouldn't an advantage specialize itself over time?
2. A change in the organization of the muscles so that the voltage increases by lining them up
Again, this seems to be a specialization thing after electrocution begins.
What if the electrocution was very small at first, and only used for something like communication even?
Then maybe it later evolved to get stronger and stronger and eventually became a potent weapon. If so, optimizing muscle organization would be a simple degree of slow movements towards advantage.
3. Tuning the electroreceptors to a "best frequency"
Again, seems to be something that could happen quite easily over time.
4. The ability of all the muscles to fire at the same time
Again, not difficult to envision as evolution over time adds up.
5. (Possibly) The loss of the muscles' ability to contract (Articles mention this as happening, and the electric function replacing them, but I'm not sure yet if this function would have to be lost for the electric function to work, or if it could have just happened later to no disadvantage)
Everything you've listed so far seems like it could "happen later to no disadvantage."
6. (Possibly) An increase in fat around the head / vital organs to protect it from shocking itself (This seems to depend on whether or not this is what actually keeps it from shocking itself. Alternately, #6 could be whatever the actual method is of preventing shock, unless it is really something that was present all along.)
If the strength of the shock increased slowly over time, it wouldn't be difficult for the "actual method of preventing (self-)shock" slowly evolved with it.
Is anyone claiming that a non-electric eel turned into an awesomely powerful electric eel very quickly?
That's the only way I can see your questions making a lot of sense. But... I don't see this claim anywhere. Maybe you do know about it and can point it out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Haldir, posted 08-08-2013 8:06 AM Haldir has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2013 3:21 PM Stile has replied
 Message 56 by Haldir, posted 08-08-2013 6:33 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 47 of 101 (704346)
08-08-2013 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2013 3:21 PM


Re: Immediate or Gradual?
Catholic Scientist writes:
Its not even talking about eels. Its talking generally about the evolution of the electric organs that many different types of fish have.
Yeah, I kinda figured that.
But my point is still the same... is it claiming that these differences ("sensitivity increasing by orders of magnitude") are fully required before any shocking can occur at all? Or is it claiming that these differences are present in some currently-potent species?
If it's something that's required at all... I can see how a huge change in a small time-frame seems rather incredible. It seems pretty incredible to me.
If they're just talking about how currently-existing-electrically-potent species are well beyond non-electrically-potent species... then it doesn't really seem like much of a problem for evolution (over many generations) to get to the point of these specialized, focused systems and processes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2013 3:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2013 4:36 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 63 of 101 (704368)
08-09-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Haldir
08-08-2013 6:33 PM


Re: Immediate or Gradual?
Haldir writes:
My understanding was that the cells have to be lined up AND the muscles have to fire at the same time AND the tuning has to be there for there to be ANY electrocuting at all, but I certainly don't have a detailed understanding of the process at this point.
Unfortunately, I'm not much help here.
Maybe we both need to learn a bit more before drawing any conclusions :]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Haldir, posted 08-08-2013 6:33 PM Haldir has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 76 of 101 (704382)
08-09-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2013 4:36 PM


Re: Immediate or Gradual?
Catholic Scientist writes:
Yes, they're talking about how the sensitivity of the sensory-cells had to go up a whole lot in order to go from a mechanical detection to an electrical one. That is, the little hair-like thingys that can detect, say water movement, had to evolve a very high level of sensitivity in order to detect electric currents instead.
I see.
Then the question moves into: is anyone claiming that this jump-in-sensitivity occurred very quickly, and only for electrocution? Or is it possible for this sensitivity to increase over time for other things (even just better mechanical detection) before being used for some inefficient version of electrocution?
Or is this sort of the point where knowledge on the subject isn't up to the level needed to answer the questions?
Send out the eel trackers! Go forth and learn!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2013 4:36 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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