Dawkins in the Pulpit... meet the new atheists/evos same as the old boss?

I agree with you Holmes, though I don't know if bold proclamations of truth are necessarily 'the enemy'... Just those that are not in fact true. Truth is exclusive and fundamental by it's very nature.Though I do not have time to reply with the attention to detail that your critique deserves, I encourage you to continue thinking honestly on these matters.You may want to read this response: http://EvC Forum: The consequences of "Evolution is false" -->EvC Forum: The consequences of "Evolution is false"I gave it in another thread, as it addresses your position that science and morality are not compatable. It's a philosophical dissertation of the matter, but I believe it is accurate. No-one has been able to shed light on why it is not.You may also want to scroll up to message 171 for the much shorter context.

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"As long as this deliberate refusal to understand things from above, even where such understanding is possible, continues, it is idle to talk of any final victory over materialism."
(C.S. Lewis - The Weight of Glory)

You said:Rightly so holmes... Rightly so!Pardon me for the following suggestion. You must think for yourself. I find it to be of the most compelling nature.

quote:

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“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ”I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic”on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg”or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” (CS Lewis, Mere Christianity)

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Keep up the good questions holmes. A good skeptic is skeptical of his own skepticism, and so many have lost the art.

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"As long as this deliberate refusal to understand things from above, even where such understanding is possible, continues, it is idle to talk of any final victory over materialism."
(C.S. Lewis - The Weight of Glory)

Oops! I said: I assume that you got my meaning?I meant to say that bold proclamations of truth are not necessarily 'the enemy'.

Well, most of the folks here are not. So... you are more than welcome to continue this discussion by private email so as to elude the distractions of cynicism. That way, honest skeptics like you and I can have a legitimate discourse. But I am able to endure the scorn and ignore the cat calls if you just assume start a new thread.

you said:I wanted to add a couple things to my last post, besides being interested in any answers or challenges you will have to the point.I have been very frustrated by the forum administrators because of this very point that you appear to understand. I don't think it is intentional, but if the point holds water (and I think so) then by insisting on the seperation of these disciplines; science, faith, philosophy et all, by way of strict topic guidlines, then they are actually preventing the whole tapestry from being woven into a final picture of truth.In the past, I was so disturbed by this, that I swore it was an unholy alliance and intentional in the most practical manner. I now think that it is rather a collective trap that much of the world has fallen into(particularly the West), and it's roots are found primarily in Emanuel Kant, as well as David Hume and Nietzsche. There are others of course, but the point is that these philosophers have had an enormous impact on modern thinking, and their positions are held as a sort of 'given' in the fundamental ethos of the post-modern mindset.The conclusions of these men are no longer even challenged. And that is dangerous. I am not totally up to speed on the subject, but believe I have a good handle on it.

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"If naturalism were true then all thoughts whatever would be wholly the result of irrational causes...it cuts its own throat."(C.S. Lewis / A Christian Reply to Professor Price)

That is terrific! I am just looking for a serius and honest dialog. Perhaps I'll find out what I am really made of... Understandable... Let me know when the thread is up and running.

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"If naturalism were true then all thoughts whatever would be wholly the result of irrational causes...it cuts its own throat."(C.S. Lewis / A Christian Reply to Professor Price)

Holmes, I doubt you'll have the time to go back through all of this tripe, but I hope that you do...http://EvC Forum: General discussion of moderation procedures - Part -->EvC Forum: General discussion of moderation procedures - Part

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"Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable."
(C. S. Lewis)