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Author | Topic: Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Just on a basic point, it can't be correct to say
Because there's good in the world, God exists Which seems to be GDR's argument. But there is also evil in the world, so then what? The ancients pushed that one onto a different supernatural entity(s) so as not to taint the benevolent god and more latterly onto man himself. But of course that can't work because the Abrahamic god rightly takes credit for both good and evil. To do otherwise would be to admit that he's not all powerful. It's all a very simplistic storytelling trick to fool the uneducated masses but it doesn't hold any water these days. And in any case we now know where 'good' comes from, it's routed in the emotion of empathy - a brain function like many others.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: I am simply saying that as there seems to be a fairly universal understanding of goodness, primarily as seen in the Golden Rule, which is indicative of the idea that there is something that exists outside of of human experience and understanding. It's no such thing. You consistently randomly pluck goodness out of the pot of human emotions and label it supernatural. Why is anger not something that 'exists outside of human experience'? Maybe jealousy or greed? How about evil? After all, god himself says he made it. YOU may prefer to think that it's outside our understanding but that's because you put it there - outside The Barrier. We actually know quite a lot about it - it's a brain function. Just another part of us that makes us successful in our environment, able to live in groups and bring up dependant children.
As you well now there are many highly educated people who have accomplished great things in their respective fields that are Christian.
Uh? What's that got to do with anything?
We know that eh. Yes we do. Why not read the science? Here's a taster.
quote: Even if that is true, it can be either by chance or design. It's an evolutionary evolved trait like all the others. Your attempt to make it magically different isn't working. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Certainly co-operation can be shown to help survival but then the question is survival of what or who. In an earlier thread someone suggested that it was about the survival of the gene pool. For those of us in the west our gene pool is pretty diverse and frankly we would be a lot better if we could just get rid of all those Africans with their different gene pools and have those resources for ourselves. Instead, whe do what we should and try and help those in trouble over there. And that's exactly what happens - we discriminate, we can't help it, it's designed into us. In order - family, friends, neighbours, tribe, race. It all derives from empathy and that's an evolved feature like everything else. This is from a tutorial for doctors who have to learn to deal with their empathetic instincts just to survive, but also be aware or losing or dulling the reaction because they see so much suffering.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: That's my point. It is designed into us. How and why evolution 'designed' us that way is easily explicable, but it seems that you believe your god designed us to discriminate against outsiders but wants us not too. That makes no sense to me.
That also does not preclude the imagery of Dawkin's memes and there is no science that argues either for or against the idea that we might be influenced that way I don't understand what point you're making.
Certainly it evolved but why? I've explained why. We're a social species - without empathy we could not have learned how to work together. That's the whole story.
And again, that still does not either argue for or against the idea of the influence of God's still small voice nudging us through our conscience. I'm sorry but it does. It make that primitive superstitious idea redundant. We KNOW that empathy doesn't require a constant external influence; it's an inbuilt biological function - a brain function like all others. We know this because we know the parts of the brain involved and we can see what stimulates them. We also know that when the brain is damaged or lacking the function, people don't know how others feel and can't relate to them. In extreme examples we get psychopathy. How come your 'still small voice' can't be heard by those people? Is it a total fluke that the brain function is missing in people that do what we think are bad, antisocial things?
The following quote is from the tutorial for doctors that you quoted yourself. Yes, it describes how empathy works and why we need to modify it. I can't see why this helps you.
That was the point I made earlier. Many people in our own culture with its Judeo Christian roots are more likely help those from "other" tribes rather than there own because it is felt the need is greater. Oh good grief! There are two parts to this problem. The first is the primitively evolved reflex to mistrust strangers and see danger in outsiders. This is combined with the need to work in social groups - we trust our family, friends and tribe most. As we move away from that small centre we trust and care less. I don't care what your religion, that's how we're built - it's a reflex. The second part is our executive brain - the modern, conscious thinking part of our brain that is able to overcome - eventually - those reflexes. How we develop as a society influences how we treat others. Christians, like all other peoples, have been able to treat foreigners and outsiders either well or badly conditional only on their motivations. God loving Christians have murdered people of other religious beliefs without qualms of conscience and kept black slaves whilst attending church. It's society, law and our secular systems that moderate our primitively evolved traits. Religions have had a big part in that role in the past and some of it's better ideas have become incorporated our secular systems but religions rely on a fictitious entity and a pile of superstitious ancilliary garbage to keep people in order. Religions bring with them their unreformed dogma that is actually a danger - fear of women, homosexuals, social progress, non-believers. Religion is no longer necessary, it's holding us back and we do better without it. You're belifs are simply redundant. You can throw the beliefs away and still be kind to strangers - it would give you more time and resource to do it. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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