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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 459 of 969 (724770)
04-20-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Faith
04-20-2014 4:19 PM


Re: risings and fallings of land and sea
Well, first, the separate "time periods" are often described in terms that imply that the fossil contents of that particular layer lived in that "time period" which is represented by particular rock. Not above/later, and not below/earlier. Yet this is nothing but a slab of rock with dead things buried in it.
To the untrained and disinterested observer, yes. Is there a point to this?
Second, as usual I'm thinking about the strata in the Grand Canyon area because I know how neatly parallel they are to a great depth, ...
This is not necessarily so. There are several unconformities in the GC and some are angular. In other words, the Vishnu is not parrallel to the Chuar which is not paralle to the Unkar which is not parallel to the Tapeats. Thinks only stabilized in the Cambrian Period.
... so that if any of those layers had been moved by tectonic force from one place to another we should expect distortion of that layer, shouldn't we?
Of course, and we do see changes. However, the changes are not necessarily movement so much as deformation, which we see, i.e. tilting of beds.
Perhaps you can elaborate on how tectonic movement created any of those tightly stacked parallel layers separately from the others?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'tightly stacked parallel layers'. Compaction and dewatering during lithification would make them 'tightly packed', I guess.
So, let me try to get this clear: what you are saying you SEE is the building of different layers by rising and falling of the sea?
No we see different layers occurring with sedimentation. As the depositional environment changed, so did the characteristic rocks of that area.
In that case you are seeing 1) something happening on a much much faster time scale than the building of the geologic column is supposed to have taken, ...
Why is that?
... which would be more consistent with something like a worldwide Flood, and 2) also on a much much smaller geographic scale: you are of course not seeing it to any greater depth than the highest tide or possibly tsunami could produce, not anything on the scale of the formation of strata to enormous thicknesses that span entire continents and even cross the ocean.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. What is wrong with a smaller geographic area? What would the tides or tsunamis have to do with it? Why should thick bed take less time to deposit? And not the formations are not continuous across oceans.
quote:
The principles involved are there I'm sure, but the scale of the geo column is beyond anything being formed today.
You are confusing the Geological time scale with the geological column. Every point on earth has its own geological column, whereas the timetable is the same everywhere.
Alrighty, so you've got this mile deep stack of sediments now sinking into the crust, allowing the water to be as deep as needed to create the Kaibab (Permian) limestone without raising the sea level?
Rising sea level is not necessary, yes.
Okay, so does the land rise again for the deposition of land type sediments and fossils above the Permian? The Claron formation in the Grand Staircase is the uppermost sedimentary layer and it is also limestone, so did the whole stack, now over two miles deep, have to sink again for that to be formed? How deep into the crust is it possible for the land to sink?
The Mississippi Delta sedimentary package is over 7 miles deep. At this location we are not talking about much over a couple thousand feet of relief at any give time.
Anyway, it does seem like you have either sea level rising and falling or land rising and falling because of the different kinds of sediments and fossils up the column. If not, please explain.
I have not problem with that.
Also, do you or do you not regard each of the "time periods" that are attached to various levels of the strata as former landscapes during which the particular life forms fossilized in those layers dominated?
Again, your wording is fuzzy. If I understand, yes. The time periods would be approximately isochronous.
Of course, but how does such tectonic phenomena raise or lower sea level?
Several ways, but the most important are thermal fluctuations in the mantle which locally raise large parts of the crust.
There's a ton of evidence. It's called the Geologic Column.
Then you need to explain all of the things that happened during the flood, such as the entire age of the dinosaurs.
I don't get the problem. If sediments washed off the land along with all the living creatures on the land, that would all have been redeposited as strata by the Flood waters as well as the marine sediments and creatures.
How do you wash evaporites into an ocean basin? How does the age of dinosaurs fit into the middle of a flood? What about limestones? How do they form in the middle of a global flood that is washing off the continents?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Faith, posted 04-20-2014 4:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 461 of 969 (724774)
04-20-2014 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Faith
04-20-2014 2:26 PM


But the placement of these things seems to suggest a different order. For the Vishnu to be older seems a bit odd considering that it occupies the space which the strata of the Supergroup must have occupied in that same area originally by the look of it.
Well, then you need to explain why the Vishnu is metamorphosed by the granite but the 'older' GCSg escaped thermal metamorphism.
You also need to explain why the Vishnu is intruded by the granite but the Unkar Group is not.
Keep in mind that the Cardenas intrusives cross-cut all of these units (Vishnu, Zoroaster Granite, and Unkar) so is later than all of them.
This is pretty basic Geology 101.
Those strata still exist at that same level after all, though broken and tilted in that small part of the area we get to see on the diagrams.
No.
Look closely at your diagram. The Zoraster includes pieces of the Vishnu, that means that it is younger than the Vishnu. Then you can see pieces of the Zoroaster in the Unkar, so the Unkar must be younger than the granite. Connecting these together, we have the following sequence Vishnu -> Zoroaster -> Chuar -> Cardenas, all followed by the Unkar, Tapeats, etc....
They may be at the same elevation, but they are definitely not of the same age. That would be 'tectonics' in action.
You'd think they couldn't form at all if the area was already occupied by formerly metamorphosed sedimentary rock.
That's because the rocks have been uplifted, metamorphosed and deformed. Happens all the time. Even as we speak.
Of course your dating methods will trump anything I have to say, but from the look of it I'd guess that the strata were laid down continuously with the strata above, and probably a lot deeper than we can see on the diagrams.
Well, they may trump what you say, but field relationships always trump radiometric ages. More Geology 101.
And then we got that tectonic disruption, along with the release of magma from beneath the crust, the strata at that lower level were broken, shoved, displaced, tilted, metamorphosed in part due to the volcanic heat and the pressure above; the magma also rose to form the granite which also occupies the same level beneath the Tapeats, ...
No.
Both the Zoroaster and Cardenas were emplaced before the Tapeats (see above). It is much more robust to say that the deformation occurred before the Tapeats, because we can see from the geometry of the Cardenas intrusives that they were also deformed along with the BCSg before the Tapeats.
In fact, your diagram shows that there was erosion and deformation in between the Chuar and the Unkar as well.
the whole disturbance raising the entire stack above the Tapeats which brought about quite the cataclysmic effects above the Kaibab, and there you have it.
Not likely.
In this case, as I've said before, you need to have a major discontinuity between the Tapeats and all underlying rocks. We see such things elsewhere, but not here. They are called ovethrusts or decollements. They are quite well known and recognizable by even novice geologists.
Do you want to know more about ovethrusts?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Faith, posted 04-20-2014 2:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 2:12 AM edge has replied
 Message 470 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 4:11 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 465 of 969 (724781)
04-20-2014 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Faith
04-20-2014 5:44 PM


How could there ever have been a Geologic Timescale at all then, or a Geologic Column to the depth of what we see in the GC-GS area?
Umm,... you do know that there are rocks in other parts of the world, don't you?
That is, how could there have ever been an actual COLUMN, a STACK of sediments that so reliably seems to show the sequence of time periods from one to another?
Correlation and mapping from area to area.
That is, you seem to believe that there were many risings and fallings of land and/or sea during the laying down of the whole thing, ...
Well, I don't know that it's 'many', but there are quite a few examples. And we can document them.
Is this a problem?
... and yet the deposition seems to have continued quite consistently through that whole three miles of depth or more, or in other words through those hundreds of millions of years from Precambrian to most Recent time.
I'm not sure why this is a problem. In some places it wasn't quite so consistent.
quote:
I'm still trying to get this said so don't jump on any word problem you may find in it.
Well, sometimes you need to work out the 'word problems' before there is communication.
added by edit:
You seem pretty skeptical of anything related to mainstream science. Do you apply this same skepticism to you own story?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Faith, posted 04-20-2014 5:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 467 of 969 (724794)
04-20-2014 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Faith
04-20-2014 2:05 PM


Re: Percy bogusity from message 400 and 412
Just one of those bald assertions geologists like to make and treat as fact without evidence and then they get all pushed out of shape if anyone questions it.
Actually, this reference has a nice cross-section in Fig. 3.2 on page 3-27. It shows evidence that the first sediments to be deposited on the continental margin where the Mississippi Delta is today were in the pre-Cretaceous. I have seen other references that report Triassic or Jurassic for the start of the delta.
Civil and Environmental Engineering
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Faith, posted 04-20-2014 2:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 471 of 969 (724819)
04-21-2014 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Faith
04-21-2014 2:12 AM


Fine, I can give it a guess, but you still need to explain how it got there at all if the schist was there first, the spatial problem. How do strata displace schist, or granite?
They don't. They were deposited on top of the pre-existing schist and granite, which formed the core of a previous mountain range that had been eroded away.
I know. You simply can't believe it.
So I'd guess the Supergroup wasn't in the direct path of the hot magma, perhaps because lower layers got fried before that level was reached --
They are in direct contact. If you can put your hand on a hot stove, I'd love to know how you do it...
The rock beneath and around the identified rock isn't usually identified itself: more schist and granite?
Likely more of the same.
Or because the strata in tilting slid beneath the upper stack which moved some strata into the magma's path and left some out of the magma's path. I have a picture of this in my mind and I haven't said it well, but maybe I'll try later. Some of it got metamorphosed, the rest didn't.
If all of these rocks are 'sliding around', then there should be evidence. I suggest you get to work and find it because no one has described any such thing.
In any case, again, I can't see how the strata could have been laid down afterward.
As I said, you simply can't believe it.
Well, I simply can't believe your scenario, but I also have evidence to back mine up.
The way it got moved and tilted is still my best guess.
So, it's chance, eh?
Of course it's later, but that doesn't necessarily mean a LOT later. How about months later?
Unlikely. You would need to emplace the schist, then intrude it by granite, then erode down to the leve of both of them, then deposit the Unkar, then erode the Unkar, and then deposit the Cardenas. And if all of that happened as you would like the appearance of the Cardenas intrusives would be very different because they would likely be intruding wet sediments.
... Which rocks, and how does this sequence make it possible for the strata to be laid down in neat horizontal sequence afterward?
The ones under the Great Unconformity. You create a peneplain, like the coastal plain and then fill in the depressions.
Yeah but in my scenario all that sort of thing could be the result of the tectonic and volcanic upheaval that occurred after those strata were laid down, tilting and sliding things, abrading surfaces between each other and so on.
Could be, but you have no evidence for such tectonism. If it was there, it would have been noted by now.
... If you said it before in a post full of insulting remarks I may not have read it. FYI
If there were insulting remarks, you probably deserved them. Do you have any idea how insulting your own remarks are? Not to me. I don't really care, but there are people who have spent long careers in the field whose work you simply dismiss.
Which I'm supposing, aren't I? Or perhaps you need to be clearer about what this would look like.
I would expect to see evidence of shearing and deformation. It isn't there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 2:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 472 of 969 (724820)
04-21-2014 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
04-21-2014 2:26 AM


Re: granite schist and basalt
Well, I'm an unusual YEC in that I try to explain what happened beneath the Tapeats as all the same event with the massive erosion from the Kaibab on up, including the cutting of the canyon and all the rest of it, which I think of as occurring just before the receding of the Flood or shortly afterward.
Why would you do that?
Oh, never mind. You need force it all into one year, don't you? Doesn't that stretch your credulity in the least?
Most YECs accept the idea that the Great Unconformity and everything else beneath the Tapeats was already there before the Flood began, and explain all the rest from there on up by the Flood. I put quite a bit of thought at one time into angular unconformities, starting with Siccar Point, as the buckling and tilting of a lower segment of strata while the upper stack was still in place, and that's still my favorite way of looking at it.
I'm sure it is. However, you are spared the task of providing evidence for your scenario. That makes it pretty easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 2:26 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 473 of 969 (724822)
04-21-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 470 by Faith
04-21-2014 4:11 AM


Re: The order of deposition beneath the Tapeats
1) There had to be sedimentary rock prior to the Vishnu schist, for the schist to form, correct? So why not the strata of the Supergroup?
An interesting idea, and I've seen it happen elsewhere, but there was a major regional fault between the sedimentary and metamorphic members.
But not likely here. The Vishnu is mostly oceanic, whereas the Unkar is pretty much continental with conglomerates, dolomites, and quartzites; and there is an erosional unconformity between them.
It takes both heat and pressure to form, doesn't it? Or just heat? Wouldn't there also have to be pressure from above for it to form? Heat from the magma from below plus pressure from above? But you have the granite forming afterward, suggesting the magma didn't occur until afterward so where did the heat come from?
The same place it comes from today. Most likely the upper mantle. In this case, the heat could have been the same thermal event, but carried out over a very long time. I don't know, offhand, the absolute ages of the Vishnu compared to the Zoroaster.
The magma intruded into the schist and became granite, meaning of course it intruded after the schist was in place, but couldn't it have intruded before the schist was fully schist, when it was still sedimentary rock, and contributed to its becoming schist?
Depends on textural relationships. It's not all that important, anyway. The rocks had to cool and be eroded before the Unkar was deposited. This probably took on the order of hundreds of millions of years.
I know... you simply can't believe it.
I come around to what I started with: The sedimentary rock from which the schist formed had to be there before the magma eruption which created the schist and the granite. If this sedimentary rock wasn't the strata of the Supergroup, what was it?
An earlier ocean basin.
2) How could the Zoroaster granite form at all if there wasn't pressure from above, such as the strata from the Tapeats on up, to keep it confined?
Consider that the heat flows were probably higher at that time and also that there is an unknown amount of rock eroded form above the Zoroaster pluton.
That is, shouldn't it have simply erupted in a lava flow covering the whole area, covering whatever was there before the Great Unconformity and the mountain range that supposedly built from that and so on?
Possible, but all eroded away now. I see no evidence that the Zoroaster reached the surface, but by comparison with younger plutons, it probably did. In fact, there are more oceanic intrusions associated with the Vishnu that indicate even earlier extrusive volcanism.
You've got the Vishnu there first, but the Vishnu doesn't intervene between the granite and the Tapeats.
No it doesn't.
In other words, the fact that there is granite there looks to me like evidence for the stack above it being already in place.
Only if you ignore the erosional unconformtity between them. Then you have to ignore the Unkar Group and the Chuar Group and the erosional unconformities between them. And then there's the Cardenas event...
And, you will notice that I haven't even discussed the absolute (radiometric) ages...
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 4:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 11:51 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 475 of 969 (724832)
04-21-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Faith
04-21-2014 11:51 AM


Re: The order of deposition beneath the Tapeats
You don't need to, your Old Earth assumptions supply all the justification you need for your fictional scenario.
Assumptions based on evidence.
I suppose I'll deal with your other posts next but as usual the situation is only too clear. Your fictions are going to trump anything I might suggest, because that's the way it goes with a science that deals with the prehistoric past, which is built out of speculations and interpretations. I do keep being astonished at the agility of such purely fictional explanations. Comes down to Whoever has the power wins.
Well, the truth is hard to overcome, but I'm sure you can manage. In the meantime, if this dismissal is your response to the effort I have put into my posts, then we don't have much to talk about. I have tried to explain the mainstream position, but all you can come up with is 'fiction!', 'made-up!'.
And of course I "deserve" to be treated to extreme personal insults because I question the thinking of geologists, just their theories, not their persons. So that's the way it is.
I have also explained this: I respond to insult with facts.
It is a fact that you maintain a willful ignorance of the topics you discuss. Your mind is closed. In all of our discussion, you have not offered a single reference or document that actually supports your position and you have repeatedly admitted that you are not up to speed on many subjects.
And you accuse me of 'making stuff up?' Your behavior here has opened you up to insults, though I hardly consider these as 'extreme'.
Heh, heh... A typical YEC. I think we are done here.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 11:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Faith, posted 04-21-2014 12:44 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(4)
Message 496 of 969 (724931)
04-22-2014 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by RAZD
04-22-2014 4:35 PM


Re: There are scientific arguments against young earth creationism
Now consider that there are many things younger than the earth that can be found ... and all they show is that the earth is at least as old as these things but could be older.
I like to ask young earthers, exactly what ages these 'other clocks' provide.
I never get an answer...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2014 4:35 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 508 of 969 (725441)
04-27-2014 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 504 by Faith
04-27-2014 2:33 AM


Re: Percy bogusity from message 400 and 412
The way it was put it was a bald assertion, even a wild guess by the sound of it.
A guess, perhaps, but based on experience and, evidently, not too wild.
That 280 my statement is REALLY bizarre.
But it was also supported (assuming that you actually read our posts and the links). The earliest sediments a the base of the delta probably were deposited as the North American and Africa drifted apart.
Edited to add:
One could argue that this was not really the Mississippi River, I suppose, but it does make sense. On the other hand, even the 'modern delta' accepted sediments in the Quaternary Period going back to 1.6 million years.
Geologic sections through the Mississippi Embayment show that an enormous thickness of sediment has been deposited in southern Louisiana (Figure 3.2). During the Quaternary Period, or Ice Ages, (11,000 to 1.6 million years ago) the proto Mississippi River conveyed a significantly greater volume of water on a much steeper hydraulic grade. This allowed large quantities of graveliferous deposits beneath what is now New Orleans, reaching thicknesses of up to 3600 feet (Figures 3.2 and 3.3). These stiff undifferentiated Pleistocene sands and gravels generally lie between 40 and 150 feet beneath New Orleans, and much shallower beneath Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne (as one approaches the Pleistocene outcrop along the North Shore of Lake Pontchartrain).
Civil and Environmental Engineering
This reference discusses deltaic sedimentation in the Mississippian embayment.
Just a moment...
I'm going with that quote that came up somewhere back there that said they were getting false readings on the age of the basement rocks of the GC perhaps because of water content or something like that.
Please do.
if water content can mess up a reading, just THINK of all the errors you guys are refusing to consider.
Please document. AFAICS, you can say anything about this and just keep repeating it without support. Having said that, we do try to analyze pristine minerals.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Faith, posted 04-27-2014 2:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 510 of 969 (725472)
04-27-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by Percy
04-27-2014 2:19 PM


Re: Percy bogusity from message 400 and 412
So your response to an analysis of the data reported in the technical paper K-Ar Age Studies of Mississippi and Other River Sediments is to call it "bizarre", supported only by a vague reference to something somewhere about a questionable date. I was able to track your reference down. It's from your Message 375. I replied in Message 403 and explained why the layer was redated, but you didn't respond and apparently feel free to ignore the explanation and just go on making your original claim. You're a piece of work.
As usually happens when YECs analyze anything, they misconstrue. In this case, all of the dates are probably correct, it's just that they date things different from the age of sedimentation. The 280ma date is actually for the source rocks of the sediments, in other words, the rocks being eroded at the time, and we would expect them to be older.
The 166ma date is for finer grained material that they think may have been mixed with another, younger source. On the other hand, I would submit that these might also contain 'authigenic' minerals (minerals created along with the cement that holds the grains together) precipitated at the time of deposition and reflecting the true age of the deposit.
The basal unit sediments (650-690ma) are also detrital iand indicate a different source (Red River?) with older rocks in its drainage. The fact that the finer fraction, again older (similarly to the above), may again suggest an authigenic component.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Percy, posted 04-27-2014 2:19 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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