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Author | Topic: Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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mikey writes: Dragonflies. (can't find a date, but they were a lot bigger but that's all, I guess the Carboniferous) The earliest fossil of a proto-odonate is mouthparts dated at 404 million ybp. I don't have a reference for this but could probably find it. There are fossils of several dragonflies that are larger than any species alive today, but there are also many, many, fossils that are within the size range of living species.
My favorite is Meganeura monyi seen here compared to a modern species that is common across much of North America and is considered one of the larger living species.
mikey writes: Well Dr A, you make a statement, "we have the fossils", I assume that means more than a handful, and it means you can show the evolution of an interior scapular girdle to the rib-cage, in turtles from an exterior girdle, by showing the transitionals for all pre-turtles and how that change could occur because of the disjunct? Does this mean you have all of the transitionals for pre-Pterosaurs, pre-bats, pre-spiders, pre-seahorses, pre-Ichthyosaurs, pre-Jellyfish? How about ancestors from terrestrial quadrupeds to arboreal bipeds? Got any to show? I doubt it.Here is the list I have accumulated of all of the stasis, please note the term, "evolutionary stasis" is the biggest oxymoron in history. "changing stasis". Lol! It would be great if someday we actually got a creationist who knows what they are talking about and understands evolution, not some made up caricature of it. But then, if they understood it they wouldn't be creationists anymore. What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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But it's nothing more than normal microevolution that occurs all the time ... Some discussion of ankylosaur tails here.
Ankylosaur tail clubs are odd structures, odder than they are usually given credit for. They represent substantial modifications to two different skeletal systems — the endoskeleton, in the form of the caudal vertebrae, and the dermal skeleton, in the form of the caudal osteoderms. The centra of the caudal vertebrae lengthen but stay robust, and the neural arches undergo huge changes, such that the prezygapophyses, postzygapophyses, and neural spine become a robust, V-shaped structure on the top of the centrum, and which creates a tightly interlocking vertebral series with almost no flexibility. We call this the handle of the tail club. The osteoderms at the tip of the tail smush together and two of them become huge: although the tail club knob is small in some species, there are colossal knobs exceeding 60 cm in width. The ankylosaur tail club represents one of the most extreme modifications to the tail in terrestrial tetrapods.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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But it's nothing more than normal microevolution that occurs all the time ... Some discussion of ankylosaur tails here.
... The osteoderms at the tip of the tail smush together and two of them become huge: although the tail club knob is small in some species, there are colossal knobs exceeding 60 cm in width. The ankylosaur tail club represents one of the most extreme modifications to the tail in terrestrial tetrapods. But of course it is all done by microevolutionary steps ... because that is how macroevolution works -- by the accumulation of microevolutionary steps over many generations, a continuous process over time that results in offspring descendents that are noticeably different from the ancestors. These fossils show microevolutionary adaptations that each form a base for the next round of microevolutionary adaptations to build on until the full macroevolution of a new feature has occurred. Excellent example. But you knew that. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It would help to have more information about the size of these creatures etc., but in any case you'd have to show that this feature of the club at the end of the tail couldn't just have developed from normal genetic possibilities in the genome, probably brought to phenotypic expression in isolation from other kinds of ankylosaurs, and probably starting with small versions and developing increase in size over generations, as Darwin's pigeons developed the exaggerated size of features he selected for in each breeding event.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
It would help to have more information about the size of these creatures etc They're big.
but in any case you'd have to show ... No.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Dr,
Dr writes: The strange thing about you people ... OK, one of the strange things about you people ... is that you continually try to explain away, not what the fossil record looks like, but what you imagine it looks like. This is like watching someone say: "Well the reason that like poles attract is because Jesus! As you'd know if you'd read the Bible! You ignoramus! The Flood did it!" What 'you people' are you referring too? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Dr,
Dr writes: There you go. Any questions? Yes I have a question.
Dr writes: Well, you know how the more basal forms are dated earlier than the more derived forms ... ? How does a bunch of pictures lined up in a row which are said to be millions of years apart have anything to do with evolution? Is not it just just as plausible that they were created as they are found in different parts of eternity? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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How does a bunch of pictures lined up in a row which are said to be millions of years apart have anything to do with evolution? It's what we'd expect to see if there had in fact been evolution.
Is not it just just as plausible that they were created as they are found in different parts of eternity? Well, I'll say to you what Kingsley said to Gosse: "I cannot believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind."
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
What 'you people' are you referring too? Creationists. There may be a few honorable exceptions, but by and large creationists try to use the flood to explain, not what the geological record looks like, but what creationists think it looks like. But it doesn't look like that.
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Admin Director Posts: 13042 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
ICANT writes: What 'you people' are you referring too? Let's not drift off-topic. If you'd like to discuss categories of people, or whether there should be categories, or something along those lines, please take it to an appropriate thread or propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Tanypteryx,
Tanypteryx writes: Faith the evidence gathered from all over the earth for the last 200 years by tens of thousands of geologists and geology students, plus, PLUS, the paleontologists, the oceanographers, the geographers, the volcanologists, the chemists, the physicists and astrophysicists, PLUS, all of the biological fields, PLUS, a bunch more groups of specialists that have all contributed to the knowledge of the history of the earth, all that evidence, EVERY SINGLE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE, supports an old earth and a branching pattern of life that is inter-related and evolving. Nothing refutes it. Let me give it a go. There was an extended light period that ended at Genesis 1:2 with darkness. There is no way anyone can determine the duration of this light period. During this light period in which the earth began to exist and had no oceans. The following things took place. The heavens began to exist. The earth began to exist. All the oil, and natural gas in the earth began to exist. Mankind began to exist. Trees and vegetation began to exist. All kinds of creatures began to exist Mankind lived and reproduced. Mankind built cities. There was all kinds of creatures that began to exist and went extinct during this light period. The cities were destroyed at some point during this light period or at the end of it. The earth was covered with water and all life forms ceased to exist. There was darkness over the face of the earth, which ended the light period the heavens and the earth began to exist in. Time as mankind knows it began to exist with the declaration of day one which took place a few thousand years ago. Evidence:"The universe has not always existed". Steven Hawkings. Fossils in and on mountains require them to have been covered with water. The fossils that has been presented in this and many other threads on this site. Prove that there has been many creatures who have began to exist and then ceased to exist. The sudden appearances of specific fossils in the fossil record. The fact that no one knows how life on earth began to exist. The fact that no one knows how the universe began to exist. That should give you guys enough motivation to get out the flame throwers. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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None of your speculation explains why there's all this evidence for evolution lying around. You want another run at that?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Dr,
Dr writes: Well, I'll say to you what Kingsley said to Gosse: "I cannot believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind." I have the same fossil record that you do. I just read it differently than you do. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I have the same fossil record that you do. I just read it differently than you do.
I'm sorry, but 'began to exist' isn't much of an explanation...
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Dr,
Dr writes: Creationists. I am a Creationist. You are a Creationist unless you believe the Universe has always existed. But you were talking about Young Earth Creationists. Which have followed the visions that Ellen G. White had as a teenager. She was the first one who put forth the catastrophic flood in which produced all the layers of strata that is observed today. This belief has only existed since the middle of the 1800's. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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