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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 66 of 2887 (768572)
09-12-2015 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
09-03-2015 3:34 PM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

The strange thing about you people ... OK, one of the strange things about you people ... is that you continually try to explain away, not what the fossil record looks like, but what you imagine it looks like. This is like watching someone say: "Well the reason that like poles attract is because Jesus! As you'd know if you'd read the Bible! You ignoramus! The Flood did it!"

What 'you people' are you referring too?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-03-2015 3:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:12 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 70 by Admin, posted 09-12-2015 11:16 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 67 of 2887 (768576)
09-12-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
09-03-2015 9:04 PM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

There you go. Any questions?

Yes I have a question.

Dr writes:

Well, you know how the more basal forms are dated earlier than the more derived forms ... ?

How does a bunch of pictures lined up in a row which are said to be millions of years apart have anything to do with evolution?

Is not it just just as plausible that they were created as they are found in different parts of eternity?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-03-2015 9:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:09 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 71 of 2887 (768581)
09-12-2015 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tanypteryx
09-03-2015 9:40 PM


Hi Tanypteryx,

Tanypteryx writes:

Faith the evidence gathered from all over the earth for the last 200 years by tens of thousands of geologists and geology students, plus, PLUS, the paleontologists, the oceanographers, the geographers, the volcanologists, the chemists, the physicists and astrophysicists, PLUS, all of the biological fields, PLUS, a bunch more groups of specialists that have all contributed to the knowledge of the history of the earth, all that evidence, EVERY SINGLE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE, supports an old earth and a branching pattern of life that is inter-related and evolving.

Nothing refutes it.

Let me give it a go.

There was an extended light period that ended at Genesis 1:2 with darkness.

There is no way anyone can determine the duration of this light period.

During this light period in which the earth began to exist and had no oceans. The following things took place.

The heavens began to exist.

The earth began to exist.

All the oil, and natural gas in the earth began to exist.

Mankind began to exist.

Trees and vegetation began to exist.

All kinds of creatures began to exist

Mankind lived and reproduced.

Mankind built cities.

There was all kinds of creatures that began to exist and went extinct during this light period.

The cities were destroyed at some point during this light period or at the end of it.

The earth was covered with water and all life forms ceased to exist.

There was darkness over the face of the earth, which ended the light period the heavens and the earth began to exist in.

Time as mankind knows it began to exist with the declaration of day one which took place a few thousand years ago.

Evidence:
"The universe has not always existed". Steven Hawkings.

Fossils in and on mountains require them to have been covered with water.

The fossils that has been presented in this and many other threads on this site. Prove that there has been many creatures who have began to exist and then ceased to exist.

The sudden appearances of specific fossils in the fossil record.

The fact that no one knows how life on earth began to exist.

The fact that no one knows how the universe began to exist.

That should give you guys enough motivation to get out the flame throwers.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-03-2015 9:40 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:41 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 76 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 11:51 AM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 88 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-12-2015 12:54 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 94 by Admin, posted 09-12-2015 1:16 PM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 73 of 2887 (768584)
09-12-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:09 AM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

Well, I'll say to you what Kingsley said to Gosse: "I cannot believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind."

I have the same fossil record that you do. I just read it differently than you do.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:09 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 11:45 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 80 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:56 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 90 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2015 1:08 PM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 75 of 2887 (768587)
09-12-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:12 AM


Hi Dr,
Dr writes:

Creationists.

I am a Creationist. You are a Creationist unless you believe the Universe has always existed.

But you were talking about Young Earth Creationists. Which have followed the visions that Ellen G. White had as a teenager. She was the first one who put forth the catastrophic flood in which produced all the layers of strata that is observed today.

This belief has only existed since the middle of the 1800's.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:54 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 77 of 2887 (768590)
09-12-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:41 AM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

None of your speculation explains why there's all this evidence for evolution lying around. You want another run at that?

What speculation.

I used all your your evidence for evolution.

Are you saying they are all wrong.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:41 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:55 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 81 of 2887 (768598)
09-12-2015 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by edge
09-12-2015 11:45 AM


Hi edge,

edge writes:

I'm sorry, but 'began to exist' isn't much of an explanation...

Are you telling me you do not believe that the universe began to exist?

Are you telling me you do not believe that the earth began to exist?

Are you telling me you do not believe that life began to exist?

If you do not believe they began to exist, do you believe they have always existed?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 11:45 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 12:16 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 82 of 2887 (768600)
09-12-2015 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:56 AM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

In that you ignore it and I don't. This is different.

Where have I ignored it?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:56 AM Dr Adequate has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 12:21 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 85 of 2887 (768605)
09-12-2015 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:55 AM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

You know, the stuff you made up?

Since you like one liners lets try one thing at a time.

ICANT writes:

The heavens began to exist.

Heavens is the universe.

So did the universe have an instant in which the universe had a beginning to exist.

If the universe did not have an instant in which it had a beginning to exist, has it always existed?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:55 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 12:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 87 of 2887 (768611)
09-12-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 11:54 AM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

I am a Creationist. You are a Creationist unless you believe the Universe has always existed.

No.

No What?

Are you saying the universe does not exist? I don't think so.

The universe does exist.

That requires the universe had a beginning to exist as Stephen Hawking said.

If it had a beginning to exist that requires it be created by some means. There are several methods that have been proposed to accomplish that beginning to exist.

You may believe it was created by Hawking's instanton. Which would require existence for the instanton to exist or appear in.

You may believe it was created by two branes banging together. But then you have a problem of existing existence in which the universe began to exist.

If it was not created, how did the universe begin to exist?

If you got another explanation I would like to hear it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 11:54 AM Dr Adequate has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by JonF, posted 09-13-2015 9:15 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 89 of 2887 (768618)
09-12-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 12:32 PM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

What could that conceivably have to do with fossils?

We have to have a universe because No universe, no fossils.
No earth, no fossils.

Mankind beginning to exist gives reason for human remains to be found.

All kinds of creatures beginning to exist gives you all the fossils you have existing in the museum's today.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 12:32 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 1:12 PM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 09-13-2015 9:17 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 91 of 2887 (768620)
09-12-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by edge
09-12-2015 12:21 PM


Hi edge,

edge writes:

The fossil record is not just a collection of fossils.

If the fossil record is not just a collection of fossils, what is it?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 12:21 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 1:14 PM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 96 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 7:46 PM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 103 by RAZD, posted 09-13-2015 11:50 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 95 of 2887 (768633)
09-12-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tanypteryx
09-12-2015 12:54 PM


Hi Tanypteryx,

Tanypteryx writes:

This is a science thread. What you think Genesis says is not relevant to this discussion.

Do you believe or think the universe began to exist in an absence of light?

Tanyperyx writes:

None of this has anything to do with science or what we have learned from studying the fossils.

Are you telling me that the fossils could exist without the universe and the earth?

Without mankind existing you would have no fossils to put up to look at. If fact you would not exist.

OK lets say the universe exist.

That means we can have fossils.
Because mankind began to exist we can have human fossils.
Because all kinds of creature's began to exist we can have all kinds of fossils in our museum's.
Because the trees and vegetation began to exist we can have the oil, natural gas, and coal we have today, in which fossils are found, which is one reason it is called fossil fuels.

Tanypteryx writes:

Where and when did Stephen Hawking say that? And, so what?

In his Lecture 'The Beginning of Time'.
" All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning"

Tanypteryx writes:

How is what Hawking said evidence that refutes, the scientific discoveries of millions of scientists over the last 2oo years?

He is one of the top of scientists of that 200 years.

Tanypteryx writes:

No, they don't. We know that fossils of marine organisms that are found in mountains were deposited in oceans as sedimentary layers and millions of years later those layers were thrust up by plate tectonics to become mountains.

Lets see: the fossils of water creatures were buried under layers of sediment. Did they not have to be in water and covered up?

That means those mountains were covered with water at one time.

You are not talking to a YEC creationist. I am super old creationist, older than you believe in.

Tanypteryx writes:

In what way do you think this refutes the conclusions of science that the earth is very old, that the diversity of life is the product of evolution, and that the fossils support these conclusions?

They don't have to prove the earth is young as you assume I believe. I believe the universe is very old more than 15 billion years. In fact I believe in an older universe.

Tanypteryx writes:

In what way do you think this refutes the conclusions of science that the earth is very old, that the diversity of life is the product of evolution, and that the fossils support these conclusions?

It doesn't refute that the earth is very old.
It does refute evolution, as the fossils do not support evolution. There is no gradual change shown in the fossil record. There is the fact that the record shows that at many times there appeared completely new creatures on the earth.

Tanypteryx writes:

What specific fossils are you talking about?

Completely new creatures who had not existed before.

Tanypteryx writes:

The bible and religion are not contributing much, if anything, to that understanding and those conclusions

I think you need to go back in history and do some studying about who contributed what to the present understanding of the universe.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-12-2015 12:54 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 7:53 PM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 8:51 PM ICANT has taken no action
 Message 99 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-12-2015 10:01 PM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 604 of 2887 (826169)
12-23-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by edge
09-12-2015 12:16 PM


Hi Edge,

Sorry I had overlook this post and then got so busy with more important things that I did not get back to it until now.

Edge writes:

Are you telling me that 'began to exist' is the same as 'intelligently created?

Began to exist, means exactly what it says.
Began to exist has nothing to say about how something began to exist.
Began to exist is the opposite of did not exist.

According to the BBT the universe existed at T=0 +a billionth of a second.

The scientific answer for what existed at T=0 is, "We don't know". The reason we don't know is that the mathamatics break down and can tell us nothing about whether some thing, or no thing existed at T=0

Since the universe did exist at T=0+one billionth of a second some thing had to exist at T=0 to produce what existed at T=0+one billionth of a second.

OR

#1. The universe began to exist from the absence of anything. (no thing)
#2. The universe began to exist from forces outside the universe.

I have been told here on many occasions that there is no thing that exist outside of the universe as it is self contained.

Edge writes:

Are you telling me that your little semantic games are an argument for YECism?

Why would I argue for YECism when I am older universe than you or anyone else that post on this site.

Edge writes:

Are you telling me that the beginning of life is definitive argument in the evolution/creationism discussion?

I am telling you that if there is no life there is nothing to evolve or was created. Thus there would be no discussion as we would not exist. It does not matter how that life began to exist, but since it does that gives us something to discuss.

Edge writes:

Of course not. Are you saying that make me a creationist in the sense that we discuss in this forum?

OK so you don't believe the universe has existed eternally in the past.

Since it has not always existed then you must believe it had a beginning to exist as it does exist today.

The Hebrew word we translate as created means something that has not existed begins to exist.

So regardless of what theory you believe concerning how the universe began to exist since you don't believe it has always existed you are a creationist.

But no when you discuss creationist you only want to talk about YECism not creatonism

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by edge, posted 09-12-2015 12:16 PM edge has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2017 4:54 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 615 by Astrophile, posted 12-25-2017 2:28 PM ICANT has taken no action

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 613 of 2887 (826193)
12-24-2017 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2017 4:54 PM


Hi Dr.

Dr writes:

Someone tell ICANT what "creationist" means.

Better yet why don't you explain to ICANT how the universe began to exist if you do not believe it has existed eternally in the past.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2017 4:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-25-2017 3:03 AM ICANT has taken no action

  
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