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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 91 of 283 (839917)
09-18-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
09-18-2018 3:43 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
No money, just a pat on the back. Find the test first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 3:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 4:37 PM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7816
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 92 of 283 (839920)
09-18-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
09-18-2018 3:58 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Faith writes:

No money, just a pat on the back. Find the test first.

You've already failed the test. It was how you deal with bias when considering evidence. Especially evidence that you have a personal stake in. Not only did you fail, you refused to learn about it and how to deal it. You haven't even read the research on what it is.

You're avoiding learning how to think critically and rationally and you've demonstrated that you can't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 3:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 4:48 PM Tangle has not yet responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 283 (839921)
09-18-2018 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
09-18-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Find a test. I found a few that aren't very apropos but I'm continuing to look.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 4:37 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-19-2018 1:33 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 94 of 283 (839923)
09-18-2018 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
09-18-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Look, I know that confirmation bias involves ignoring the information that DOESN'T fit the perceived pattern. The thing is the pattern isn't resting on an exclusive collection of information but a preponderance of incidents with the same theme that occurred exactly on that theme, exactly, precisely, not two sentences away. I was getting lots of those. The theme is NOT that common and I haven't had one occur since. Which of course in itself suggests the whole thing was an illusion, but it was quite a collection of related images, seeming beyond chance.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : j

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 283 (839926)
09-19-2018 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
09-18-2018 4:48 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Faith writes:

Find a test. I found a few that aren't very apropos but I'm continuing to look.

Why not take Bob Altemeyer's test?
quote:
This survey is part of an investigation of general public opinion concerning a variety of social issues. You will probably find that you agree with some of the statements, and disagree with others, to varying extents. Please indicate your reaction to each statement on the line to the left of each item according to the following scale:

Write down a -4 if you very strongly disagree with the statement.
Write down a -3 if you strongly disagree with the statement.
Write down a -2 if you moderately disagree with the statement.
Write down a -1 if you slightly disagree with the statement.
Write down a +1 if you slightly agree with the statement.
Write down a +2 if you moderately agree with the statement.
Write down a +3 if you strongly agree with the statement.
Write down a +4 if you very strongly agree with the statement.
If you feel exactly and precisely neutral about an item, write down a 0.

("Dr. Bob" to reader: We’ll probably stay friends longer if you read this paragraph.) Important: You may find that you sometimes have different reactions to different parts of a statement. For example, you might very strongly disagree ("-4") with one idea in a statement, but slightly agree ("+1") with another idea in the same item. When this happens, please combine your reactions, and write down how you feel on balance (a "-3" in this case).

The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things, while the radicals and protestors are usually just "loudmouths” showing off their ignorance.
Women should have to promise to obey their husbands when they get married.
Our country desperately needs a mighty leader who will do what has to be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us.
Gays and lesbians are just as healthy and moral as anybody else.
It is always better to trust the judgment of the proper authorities in government and religion than to listen to the noisy rabble-rousers in our society who are trying to create doubt in people’s minds
Atheists and others who have rebelled against the established religions are no doubt every bit as good and virtuous as those who attend church regularly.
The only way our country can get through the crisis ahead is to get back to our traditional values, put some tough leaders in power, and silence the troublemakers spreading bad ideas.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with nudist camps.
Our country needs free thinkers who have the courage to defy traditional ways, even if this upsets many people.
Our country will be destroyed someday if we do not smash the perversions eating away at our moral fiber and traditional beliefs.
Everyone should have their own lifestyle, religious beliefs, and sexual preferences, even if it makes them different from everyone else.
The "old-fashioned ways” and the "old-fashioned values” still show the best way to live.
You have to admire those who challenged the law and the majority’s view by protesting for women’s abortion rights, for animal rights, or to abolish school prayer.
What our country really needs is a strong, determined leader who will crush evil, and take us back to our true path.
Some of the best people in our country are those who are challenging our government, criticizing religion, and ignoring the "normal way things are supposed to be done.”
God’s laws about abortion, pornography and marriage must be strictly followed before it is too late, and those who break them must be strongly punished.
There are many radical, immoral people in our country today, who are trying to ruin it for their own godless purposes, whom the authorities should put out of action.
A "woman’s place” should be wherever she wants to be. The days when women are submissive to their husbands and social conventions belong strictly in the past.
Our country will be great if we honor the ways of our forefathers, do what the authorities tell us to do, and get rid of the "rotten apples” who are ruining everything.
There is no "ONE right way” to live life; everybody has to create their own way.
Homosexuals and feminists should be praised for being brave enough to defy "traditional family values.
This country would work a lot better if certain groups of troublemakers would just shut up and accept their group’s traditional place in society.
To score the test, go to page 13 of Altemeyer's book, the link is at the top of this message. I scored 44.(in 2009)

Are you an authoritarian? Take the test and find out!



Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 4:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 09-19-2018 1:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 100 by caffeine, posted 09-19-2018 2:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 283 (839932)
09-19-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
09-18-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Tangle, addressing Faith writes:

You've already failed the test. It was how you deal with bias when considering evidence. Especially evidence that you have a personal stake in. Not only did you fail, but you also refused to learn about it and how to deal with it. You haven't even read the research on what it is.

You're avoiding learning how to think critically and rationally and you've demonstrated that you can't.

You do have a point in regards to subjective evidenced beliefs and how we do have a personal stake in them. It may well be that no believer can totally throw it all away in order to think critically. I try, but I won't simply let go of my strongly held beliefs in order to arrive at some possible truth which I don't trust nor feel comfortable with.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 4:37 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 09-19-2018 1:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 97 of 283 (839939)
09-19-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
09-19-2018 10:42 AM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
You do have a point in regards to subjective evidenced beliefs and how we do have a personal stake in them. It may well be that no believer can totally throw it all away in order to think critically. I try, but I won't simply let go of my strongly held beliefs in order to arrive at some possible truth which I don't trust nor feel comfortable with.

If you believe the Bible is God's inspired word to us, you don't treat it as man-made by subjecting it to the kind of thinking you'd subject any man-made doctrine to. It is given to us to learn from, period. Everything else you can dissect and criticize, but not God's word.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-19-2018 10:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18545
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 98 of 283 (839944)
09-19-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
09-19-2018 1:09 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Faith writes:

If you believe the Bible is God's inspired word to us, you don't treat it as man-made by subjecting it to the kind of thinking you'd subject any man-made doctrine to.


Why would you believe that?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 09-19-2018 1:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 283 (839945)
09-19-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-19-2018 1:33 AM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
I didn't want to take that ridiculous test when you posted it the first time and I still don't. It seems to be a bunch of opinions specifically collected from people chosen to have IQs below 80. Here's statement #1:

The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things, while the radicals and protestors are usually just "loudmouths” showing off their ignorance.

Both parts of that statement give me a sort of nausea. WHAT "established authorities?" It depends on what office they're in, and their political views among other things, and some of them with views I might otherwise agree with are complete idiots. Some protestors are protesting the right things for the right reasons, some are protesting for the wrong reasons, some are getting paid to disrupt town hall meetings and the Kavanaugh hearings. What does "usually" mean?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-19-2018 1:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1798
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 100 of 283 (839947)
09-19-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-19-2018 1:33 AM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Why not take Bob Altemeyer's test?

Aside from the fact that the test looks really badly designed, it's also trying to test something different that what Tangle and Faith were arguing about. Not sure what this would resolve.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-19-2018 1:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 283 (864694)
10-15-2019 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
09-10-2018 3:58 PM


Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Tangle writes:

Quite apart from the fact that the thing you call god doesn't exist, there is no way you could know a supernatural being if it did.

Unless the alleged supernatural Being provided a method where humanity could interact with it. You know the story.

Tangle writes:

Maybe it would help if you stopped using the word 'evidence' when you're saying that things are subjective and impersonal it would help.

Fine. Subjective unverifiable experience then. And I then resort to the Appeal To Popularity. Critics seem to equate belief in God as a belief that is as irrational as belief in Odin, or Spaghetti Monsters or Bigfoots. But when was the last time you even heard an argument from *anyone* defending the viability of a premise that any of them existed? Why is it a logical fallacy to invoke popularity? Surely the fact that so many seek to defend Christianity somehow correlates to a reason why it is something worth defending.
Tangle writes:

That's not evidence of anything other than you personally believe something. Billions of people believe billions of dumb things, you don't believe most of them, but they do.

When I say things like that you just shrug, it doesn't seem to matter to you that what you believe has nothing to do with anything other than the time and place you were born.

yes. I know. But it is more than blind chance, in my opinion. Christianity won't go away anytime soon...despite your hopes. When society breaks, rationality goes out the window. And don't accuse me of wanting chaos to occur. I will argue that it is cyclical and inevitable.

The closer that humanity gets to a godless society, the closer we also get to extinction. Odd that.

On a side note from the "other side" note this interaction between Matt Dillahunty and his fundamentalist parents. It explains to me why people like Theodoric hate Christianity so much.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:58 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 103 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2019 5:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5244
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 102 of 283 (864695)
10-15-2019 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
10-15-2019 4:15 AM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Why is it a logical fallacy to invoke popularity? Surely the fact that so many seek to defend Christianity somehow correlates to a reason why it is something worth defending.

Are you sure you want to go here? Remember that a vast majority of the people on this planet reject your version of a god. If this were an election you would lose.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 4:15 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7816
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 103 of 283 (864696)
10-15-2019 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
10-15-2019 4:15 AM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Phat writes:

Unless the alleged supernatural Being provided a method where humanity could interact with it.


Yeh well, we're all still waiting for that.

You know the story.

Yes, it's a story. One of many.

And I then resort to the Appeal To Popularity.

Which you would, of course, lose. So that's that then?

Critics seem to equate belief in God as a belief that is as irrational as belief in Odin, or Spaghetti Monsters or Bigfoots.

And so it is.

But when was the last time you even heard an argument from *anyone* defending the viability of a premise that any of them existed?

Believers in all sorts of irrational stuff exist. I'm sure there's a load of Odin worshipers out there somewhere that will happily tell you their argument. As I say, people will believe in anything.

Why is it a logical fallacy to invoke popularity? Surely the fact that so many seek to defend Christianity somehow correlates to a reason why it is something worth defending.

Because it's a fallacy. You know, something that is an error of logic? The billions that believe in Vishnu doesn't make him exist. To you, does Vishnu exist - he's very popular? Why is your particular god any different?

yes. I know. But it is more than blind chance, in my opinion.

If you only believe what you believe because you were born where and when you were, how can it not be chance?

Christianity won't go away anytime soon...despite your hopes.

Christianity as a fundie religion is fading fast. It'll probably never fully disappear, there will always be nut jobs that need it.

When society breaks, rationality goes out the window. And don't accuse me of wanting chaos to occur. I will argue that it is cyclical and inevitable.

Societies 'break' all the time. Then they rebuild or get consumed by others. It's normal. Read history. It's not the end of the world, it's the human condition. We're trying to modify it and it's not going to work by praying for it.

The closer that humanity gets to a godless society, the closer we also get to extinction. Odd that.

What utter crap. The Middle East is riddled with fundy religions and look at the sate of it. The more developed a society gets the more stable it gets and the more capable it is of solving its problems in a sane manner. The world is in a far better state than it's ever been.

If you guys are not actually wanting the world to come to an end you're claiming that it is. It's crap; you're part of the problem, not the solution.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 4:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 104 of 283 (864702)
10-15-2019 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
10-15-2019 4:15 AM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
The logical fallacies are strong in this one.
Critics seem to equate belief in God as a belief that is as irrational as belief in Odin, or Spaghetti Monsters or Bigfoots. But when was the last time you even heard an argument from *anyone* defending the viability of a premise that any of them existed?

http://www.odinbrotherhood.com/

There are many people that profess a belief in Bigfoot.

Pastafarianism is a religion that has lots of followers. Are you saying their beliefs are not worthy of respect, because you think their beliefs are silly?
https://www.venganza.org/

Self awareness does not seem a requirement in order to be a fundie. Are there any other beliefs you want to insult, just becaue they are not your christian beliefs?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 10-15-2019 4:15 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Diomedes, posted 10-15-2019 9:53 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 957
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(2)
Message 105 of 283 (864707)
10-15-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Theodoric
10-15-2019 9:02 AM


Re: Matt Dillahunty & his fundie family feud.
Critics seem to equate belief in God as a belief that is as irrational as belief in Odin, or Spaghetti Monsters or Bigfoots. But when was the last time you even heard an argument from *anyone* defending the viability of a premise that any of them existed?

http://www.odinbrotherhood.com/
There are many people that profess a belief in Bigfoot.

Pastafarianism is a religion that has lots of followers. Are you saying their beliefs are not worthy of respect, because you think their beliefs are silly?
https://www.venganza.org/

Let me add one more to the pot:

http://www.hellenion.org/

Those are Greek pagans, who still worship the ancient gods such as Zeus, Apollo, Hera, etc. They even had to fight in Greece to get their religion recognized by court order:
https://wildhunt.org/...zed-as-known-religion-in-greece.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Theodoric, posted 10-15-2019 9:02 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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