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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 303 (338500)
08-08-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Ben!
08-07-2006 5:59 PM


all religion has to do is avoid causing cognitive dissonace in it's memebers. For believers, it doesn't have to be logical.

Exactly. I don't see whats so hard to understand about this.

Cognitive dissonance <---- thats the phrase I was looking for when I was typing about how it could be a little illogical just a long as it isn't totally illogical, like contradicting itself for example.

Thanks


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Ben!, posted 08-07-2006 5:59 PM Ben! has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 303 (338503)
08-08-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by kalimero
08-07-2006 6:52 PM



What makes you think that something MUST be logical?

Because that is what allows me to explain it and make predictions about it. logic is what ties the over all expanation (theory/hypotheisis) with the actual evidence.

OK, now try applying that to a religion or philosophy. THere's not much evidence nor predictions to make.

Humans are not logical, but should strive to be logical for the reasons writen above. but whet somebody says that being illogical is o.k. when there is a logical alternative, then thats like saying: "I dont want to know how this works I'm just glad (joyfull) it does" - which is just ignorant.

Poor metaphor.

The logical alternative to religion is atheism. I believe god exists before I pick a religion. I'm not saying I don't want to know how this works, I'm saying that the how isn't enough information. I want some answers to the why's, and religion can provide some, even is they don't follow logical rules. The belief in god is not a result of the religion, the religion is a result of the belief in god, for me at least. The religion doesn't have to be logical because that is not what it is for.

If we used only illogical arguements to try to understand the universe - what is the probability that we will get it right?

Thats retarded too. Just because we'll allow some illogic doesn't mean we have to have no logic at all.

Regardless, all religion has to do is avoid causing cognitive dissonace in it's memebers.

But it does do that by this definition:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/cognitive+dissonance
when it tries to argue 'incongruous beliefs and attitudes' (the bible for example).

The Bible isn't a religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by kalimero, posted 08-07-2006 6:52 PM kalimero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by kalimero, posted 08-08-2006 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

kalimero
Member (Idle past 551 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 288 of 303 (338530)
08-08-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2006 11:55 AM


Why do you think it should? I mean, according to the religion, God has magical powers. How would you hold that up to logical scrutiny? You'd just conclude he didn't exist, I guess. But for those who believe he does, what is logic going to do for anything about God? Why should they have to?

So your saying that the purpose of those people is to believe in god, even if they must 'put aside' logic? Like I said, if only you could have graded my tests, I wouldnt have to use logic beacuse my goal would be to get 100% (I would have faith that I get 100%) and so any use of logic would be unnecessary.

Thats retarded. Don't you remember me typing something like that religion could be a little illogical but not science?, IIRC

But dont you understand that I have faith in physics {/sarcasm) :) . I dont need logic, and so I can make up whatever physical law I wish as long as it is not self conrtadictory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2006 11:55 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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kalimero
Member (Idle past 551 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 289 of 303 (338538)
08-08-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2006 12:06 PM


OK, now try applying that to a religion or philosophy. THere's not much evidence nor predictions to make.

What about what the bible says? No predictions in there?
Of course there is no evidence thats why it cant be logical (one reason anyway).

I believe god exists before I pick a religion.

based on what?

I want some answers to the why's, and religion can provide some, even is they don't follow logical rules.

So how do you know that you are right if it isnt logical, how do you test your 'why' expanation?

The religion doesn't have to be logical because that is not what it is for.

Religion is for answering questions about existance and that has to be logical.

Thats retarded too. Just because we'll allow some illogic doesn't mean we have to have no logic at all.

I didnt say that there is no logic at all, but the more logic we use the less illogic we use, and therefore we are able to say that we, at least, did our best to try to answer the questions in our lives instead of taking them, even some of them, on faith.

The Bible isn't a religion.

No but its the prediction a religion makes about the world, which have to be logical. Thats whats so dangerous about religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2006 12:06 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2006 3:00 PM kalimero has not yet responded
 Message 292 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2006 3:03 PM kalimero has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 303 (338560)
08-08-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by kalimero
08-08-2006 1:36 PM


So your saying that the purpose of those people is to believe in god, even if they must 'put aside' logic?

Man I really hate replies that start with "So your saying..."

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Like I said, if only you could have graded my tests, I wouldnt have to use logic beacuse my goal would be to get 100% (I would have faith that I get 100%) and so any use of logic would be unnecessary.

That's still retarded. I don't even understand the point of it now.

If I was grading your religious beliefs, you wouldn't lose points because of some logical inconsistancy, or fallacy. But if your beliefs had a direct contradiction, then yeah, you're not getting an A.

But dont you understand that I have faith in physics {/sarcasm) . I dont need logic, and so I can make up whatever physical law I wish as long as it is not self conrtadictory.

But that doesn't work for science. It does works for religion though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by kalimero, posted 08-08-2006 1:36 PM kalimero has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 303 (338569)
08-08-2006 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by kalimero
08-08-2006 1:59 PM


OK, now try applying that to a religion or philosophy. THere's not much evidence nor predictions to make.

What about what the bible says? No predictions in there?

So what? Your gonna write off a whole religion because a book makes a prediction? I still don't see what your getting at. This mostly seems like you trying to trip me up so you can call me out on it rather than actually trying to provide something to the discussion.

I believe god exists before I pick a religion.

based on what?

The seemingness of the existance of my soul and an appeal to authority, et al.

Now, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. That doesn't mean that it can't justify a religious belief, does it? I mean, when I think about all the great minds throughout history that have questioned the existance of god and concluded that he does exist, it makes it easier for me to believe in him too, no matter that I'm using a logical fallacy and being a little illogical. Do you understand?

So how do you know that you are right if it isnt logical, how do you test your 'why' expanation?

You don't test it. You just weigh it mentally and decide if you believe it or not. The explanations are not an end-all-be-all. They are just suggestions or possibilities, nobody know for sure. But at least they're trying to help.

No but its the prediction a religion makes about the world, which have to be logical. Thats whats so dangerous about religion.

What predictions? Also, you don't have to believe every prediction to be a part of the religion. In my entire catholic upbringing, I don't think I was taught one testable prediction about the world, nothing I could apply logic too. Like, they talked about the 2nd comming of Jesus, but not like they were making a prediction about the world, and even if I consider it a prediction, there's no logic in it to test.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by kalimero, posted 08-08-2006 1:59 PM kalimero has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 303 (338573)
08-08-2006 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by kalimero
08-08-2006 1:59 PM


Why don't we start a new thread. This one is almost done and we're not anywhere near the topic.

Just start a topic with whatever discussion is unresolved and quote stuff from this one. I'd start it but I don't know where your going with this or what your getting at and I don't see how you don't see that religion is aside from logic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by kalimero, posted 08-08-2006 1:59 PM kalimero has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by kalimero, posted 08-08-2006 5:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

kalimero
Member (Idle past 551 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 293 of 303 (338613)
08-08-2006 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2006 3:03 PM


Good idea.

Please dont take offence because of my agressive style of debate - I think you are the only person here (since I started about a year ago) to raise any kind of good arguement in favour of religion.

I will be glad to start a new thead and continue our debate.

:) :) :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2006 3:03 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 294 of 303 (338905)
08-10-2006 8:54 AM


I find it quite interesting how often debates in this forum turn into a discussion on the validity of religion and or a belief in a higher power. It's like people are trying very hard to understand logically how faith works. Of course the how is not important. It is only the why that matters.
Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by kalimero, posted 08-10-2006 10:18 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

kalimero
Member (Idle past 551 days)
Posts: 251
From: Israel
Joined: 04-08-2006


Message 295 of 303 (338915)
08-10-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by 2ice_baked_taters
08-10-2006 8:54 AM


Of course the how is not important. It is only the why that matters.

I think 'authoritative' assertions like that are what drive us to debate the debate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 08-10-2006 8:54 AM 2ice_baked_taters has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-10-2006 9:19 PM kalimero has not yet responded

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 296 of 303 (348001)
09-10-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by kalimero
08-10-2006 10:18 AM


I think 'authoritative' assertions like that are what drive us to debate the debate.

On the contrary. To you it is mainly the "how" of things that matter. To me and others like me it is only the "why" that really matters. Your view is very narrow and self limiting. You believe you are a happening that will pass. There is no why. This is not my view.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by kalimero, posted 08-10-2006 10:18 AM kalimero has not yet responded

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1704 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 297 of 303 (348069)
09-11-2006 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
10-15-2003 5:02 PM


con anima
What kind of heaven wouldn't have a place for standard poodles?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 10-15-2003 5:02 PM Yaro has not yet responded

nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 303 (357220)
10-18-2006 8:55 AM


^_^
I believe that animals have souls, they are not as highly developed as us, since they are at a lower frequency... but in some ways it makes them pure; not prone to kill because of hate. I've seen a few animal spirits, a few cats and dogs; and a chilling ghost horse running along the feilds in PA. Animals and all living creatures have a spirit, I don't know; but I think an animal that is loved deeply by a human has a soul... Soul is kind of different than a spirit, a soul is what makes you, you. A spirit is just energy. I had a cocker spanial die, I loved that dog, I'll see her again someday!
Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Parasomnium, posted 10-18-2006 9:02 AM nyenye has responded

Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 803 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 299 of 303 (357222)
10-18-2006 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by nyenye
10-18-2006 8:55 AM


Frequency?
OK, tell me how I determine my own frequency and that of my horse. I also have eight chickens, where do they fit into the spectrum?


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by nyenye, posted 10-18-2006 8:55 AM nyenye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by nyenye, posted 10-18-2006 9:07 AM Parasomnium has responded

nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 303 (357223)
10-18-2006 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Parasomnium
10-18-2006 9:02 AM


Re: Frequency?
By frequency, I mean animals are more sensative to the natural ways of life.. like storms or feeling if a person is angry/sad. With the chickens, I have no idea...? o_o
This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Parasomnium, posted 10-18-2006 9:02 AM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
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