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Author Topic:   Evolution of Languages
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 3 of 16 (71850)
12-09-2003 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by MrHambre
12-09-2003 10:50 AM


I'll grant you that micro-linguistic evolution occurs but no way macro-linguistic evolution. Ebonics clearly was specially created ex nihilo by intelligent rapping. And where are all those transitionals? I mean latin is a living fossil which disproves linguistic evolution....and don't bring up Klingon...simulated languages don't tell us anything about liguistic evolution...I won't respond to any criticism of this post since I am going to go do my laundry and watch Caddyshack for two months.

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 Message 1 by MrHambre, posted 12-09-2003 10:50 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 12 of 16 (72040)
12-10-2003 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coragyps
12-09-2003 1:51 PM


There are a few molecular based studies as well correlating everything from co-evolution of language and populations to complete language replacement.
Sajantila A, Paabo S.
Language replacement in Scandinavia.
Nat Genet. 1995 Dec;11(4):359-60
Genome Res. 1995 Aug;5(1):42-52. Related Articles, Links
Genes and languages in Europe: an analysis of mitochondrial lineages.
Sajantila A, Lahermo P, Anttinen T, Lukka M, Sistonen P, Savontaus ML, Aula P, Beckman L, Tranebjaerg L, Gedde-Dahl T, Issel-Tarver L, DiRienzo A, Paabo S.
Zoological Institute, Ludwig Maximilians University, Munich, Germany. sajanti@zi.biologie.uni-muenchen.de
When mitochondrial DNA sequence variation is analyzed from a sample of 637 individuals in 14 European populations, most populations show little differentiation with respect to each other. However, the Saami distinguish themselves by a comparatively large amount of sequence difference when compared with the other populations, by a different distribution of sequence diversity within the population, and by the occurrence of particular sequence motifs. Thus, the Saami seem to have a long history distinct from other European populations. Linguistic affiliations are not reflected in the patterns of relationships of mitochondrial lineages in European populations, whereas prior studies of nuclear gene frequencies have shown a correlation between genetic and linguistic evolution. It is argued that this apparent contradiction is attributable to the fact that genetic lineages and gene frequencies reflect different time perspectives on population history, the latter being more in concordance with linguistic evolution.

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 Message 13 by MrHambre, posted 12-10-2003 7:06 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 14 of 16 (72045)
12-10-2003 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by MrHambre
12-10-2003 7:06 AM


The problem with mtDNA is that it reflects maternal lineages only. Thus, it may not necessarily be concordant with diversification of language. Nuclear DNA, while often more slowly evolving, is contributed by both parents and thus is better for resolving such issues. This is not the first intance of non-concordance of mt and nuclear DNA results. Language is also tricky because it can be Lamarkian i.e. Eminem or Vanilla Ice and thus genetics may correlate with language diversification but the correlation may be weak.
McFall in a recent break with his mentor Noam Chomsky (or was it a breakout from where Chomsky was studying him..never can get those facts straight), wrote a paper on a novel form of Ebonics called Wet Penis and Vagina Non Judgementalism. It was published in the respected linguistic journal Annals of Chicken Pronouns and described a form of speaking where many references to judgmentalism, Dawkins, Lorenz, eugenics and nazis are made but without any knowledge displayed about any of the subjects. It is apparently a common dialect in laundromats in Ngnajuk...in order to actually read the article however, one must first translate it into French using Babelfish and then back into English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by MrHambre, posted 12-10-2003 7:06 AM MrHambre has replied

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 Message 15 by MrHambre, posted 12-10-2003 9:10 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6505 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 16 of 16 (72056)
12-10-2003 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by MrHambre
12-10-2003 9:10 AM


Re: Old School
Here is another example where language and mtDNA genetics correlations sort of flops.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1993 Nov 15;90(22):10663-7. Related Articles, Links
Genetic and linguistic differentiation in the Americas.
Ward RH, Redd A, Valencia D, Frazier B, Paabo S.
Department of Human Genetics, University of Utah, Salt Lake City 84112.
The relationship between linguistic differentiation and evolutionary affinities was evaluated in three tribes of the Pacific Northwest. Two tribes (Nuu-Chah-Nulth and Bella Coola) speak Amerind languages, while the language of the third (Haida) belongs to a different linguistic phylum--Na-Dene. Construction of a molecular phylogeny gave no evidence of clustering by linguistic affiliation, suggesting a relatively recent ancestry of these linguistically divergent populations. When the evolutionary affinities of the tribes were evaluated in terms of mitochondrial sequence diversity, the Na-Dene-speaking Haida had a reduced amount of diversity compared to the two Amerind tribes and thus appear to be a biologically younger population. Further, since the sequence diversity between the two Amerind-speaking tribes is comparable to the diversity between the Amerind tribes and the Na-Dene Haida, the evolutionary divergence within the Amerind linguistic phylum may be as great as the evolutionary divergence between the Amerind and Na-Dene phyla. Hence, in the New World, rates of linguistic differentiation appear to be markedly faster than rates of biological differentiation, with little congruence between linguistic hierarchy and the pattern of evolutionary relationships.
I think the correlation will exist if the groups are fairly isolated or xenophobic and are in areas without long histories of invading or being invaded. Otherwise you will see things like language replacement with no correlation in the gene pool. It also gets progressively more difficult to study since one consequence of globalization is that more and more languages are becoming extinct.
I agree that Syaminem has not produced much new since his hits like "Downy with homey" or "Calgon in Compton". It has been particularly bad since his former group N.W.A. (Nganjuk Washes Away) broke up and Fred Dumbst formed his own more successful group Limp Caddy. Who can forget such hits as "It aint no GA thang"? Apparently the third memeber of the group Easy Ex Nihilo was trying to create his own band..but nothing ever came of it.

This message is a reply to:
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