Morality without God

Lam:
Oh dear God!
...but I already knew that.
Gay: Morality Strike One
Atheist: Morality Strike Two
Evolutionist: Morality Strike Three
Looks like someone needs to go take a seat back in the dug out...lol
By the way Lam, I did my Masters work with jumping spidersso I too am a bit of an arachniphile (I even have a nice Latrodectus mactans sitting on my desk right now. Different suborders I know, but still, anyone that likes spiders can’t be all bad).

If your uncle is gay then you are more likely to be gay yourself. If you are one of a pair of identical twins and your brother is gay you are more likely to be gay.These facts point strongly towards a significant genetic factor in homosexuality. But that is not the same as 'there being a gay gene' or 'being born gay'. Perhaps. However pretty much every human behaviour (rape, murder, theft, and other crimes included) have a genetic component in a person's pre-disposition towards them, so I think it's questionable whether or not a genetic pre-disposition should be considered a factor in any moral judgement one wishes to bring.

i think you are confusing morality with ethics.immaterial.why shouldn't i just randomly kill someone if there is no eternal punishment? well that's just silly. it's not an efficient use of my time and energy. people are social herd animals. we assist each other. if you lose a member of the herd, the whole group will suffer. however, if a certain member is being detrimental to the health of the herd, it is reasonable that they be cast out or killed. this is why i support mass genocide of stupid people.

Generally moral judgements are not based on the act being "unnatural". In so far as that is the basis for judgement a genetic component is evidence to the contrary, suggesting that homosexual behaviour is natural for some.

I'm not sure how this is an answer?

I'm saying that one way of arguing that a moral judgement is wrong is to show that it is based on erroneous beliefs.Thus if a moral judgement against homosexuality is based on the claim that it is unnatural, evidence that homosexuality is not unnatural is relevant since it undermines the factual basis of that judgement.

Indeed. If one put forward the argument that homosexuality is wrong because it is unnatural then a genetic basis would be an argument against it.

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By following the morals of our Creator,

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So, do you think that morality comes from god?

Yes.

I would like to apologize for getting emotional at what I perceived as attacks. I now understand your intent. Thank you for clearing that up for me. However, I would like to say that people who do horrible things, like bombings, murder, wars, etc. in the name of God are more than likely just making an excuse. They know that's not what He wants, but they wish to feel justified for their actions. He is just a convenient scapegoat. Or, they could be insane. Either way, please do not liken those trying to follow God to "religious" radicals such as Osama, who support killings of those not in agreement with their views.

Schraf wrote:You Replied:So as a purely hypothetical question, if God told you to kill and rape your mother would you? Would it be right?

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*not an actual doctor

God's will is already spelled out, in the Bible. Killing and raping my mother is not in there. I know some of you will now go look into the Old Testament and find some laws where the Isrealites were required to kill the offender. I say to you, that is the Old Covenant, the Law before Christ, used to show how impossible it is for humans to please God. Christ is the New Covenant, the way for humans to be reconciled with God. So, if "god" told me to rape and kill my mother, I would have enough intelligence to realize that God doesn't make 180's like that, and dismiss it as a hypothetical question from one who doesn't know God.

What if you were absolutely 100% convinced that it was GOD telling you this? Would you obey? Would it be right? I don't care what he's said in the past, GOD shows up in your living room, hits you with the holy ghost whammy and you Know its him. Do you obey?

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*not an actual doctor

Hi achesst,
I am glad that you see that I am not attacking you or your beliefs. I find the topic you proposed interesting and want to discuss it.

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Either way, please do not liken those trying to follow God to "religious" radicals such as Osama, who support killings of those not in agreement with their views.

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I am not likening all religious people to radicals. My point about the concept of deriving morality from religion is that it is no less arbitrary than for those without religion. As Dr. Jones points out in the next message, how can you know that they do not feel moral or are not doing their god's will? You cannot claim to know what your God wants. If he says rape and kill and you don't, perhaps you are being immoral according to your religion. I don't accept that radicals are looking for scapegoats. Among them are probably those who truly believe they are acting morally just as those who don't believe they are. Their actions are ultimately labelled moral or immoral by society...the same as actions taken by athiests. You stated that the bible does not say to rape and kill (at least not the new testament), however, the bible also has nothing to say about genomic imprinting. But I could probably find a couple of passages that could be loosely interpreted to account for both. Morality to me derives from within and exists regardless of existance of the supernatural or not. Your thoughts?

Mr JackOk, so where does this leave us? I am of the belief that homosexuality is no more immoral than heterosexuality? I say this because both are a result of ones own genetic makeup. While I do agree that there is in all likely-hood no gay gene, I do believe that one is indeed born gay. I’m not gay myself, so I base this conclusion on the fact that I personally did not make the decision to be heterosexual (I was born that way), so why should I conclude that it is any different for a homosexual? I don’t really intend to speak for Lam here, but I seriously doubt that at some point in his life he decided what the heck, I think I’ll be gay (by the way Lam, I hope you realize that I was joking around a bit in my previous message. I enjoy reading your posts, could care less about you sexual preferences, and agree with your other two positions, as I am an agnostic and a strict evolutionist).Can homosexuality be compared in a genetic sense to other behaviors that most of us agree would be considered immoral (rape, murder, theft,)? I don’t think so. I'm spinning off into an area here where my bank of knowledge is not so great, so bear with me, but I do not really think you can demonstrate a direct genetic connection to being a rapist or a murderer or a thief, and that most of these behaviors are a result of chemical imbalances and/or environmental factors. As such, they are treatable. However, ones sexual preference seems to be strongly linked to genetics, and therefore is not really a treatable condition. Now, I'm not sure I can back this up with any citations or publications, it's just info that I see to recall from my school days (which were many many moons ago).